% Ademan has left Ademan!~dan@c-69-181-114-208.hsd1.ca.comcast.net ok 21 - freeze/thaw - shallow yay! % purl has left purl!purl@sentient.life % iblechbot has joined #parrot % marmic has left marmic!~chatzilla@89-253-66-101.customers.ownit.se % darbelo has left #parrot % wknight-away has joined #parrot r26575 | fperrad++ | trunk: : [pct] : add method 'clone' (needed by Lua) diff: http://parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision/?rev=26575 r26576 | fperrad++ | trunk: : [Lua] : - fix where & traceback : since r26495, Parrot_Context_info.file is a STRING* (previously a char*) diff: http://parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision/?rev=26576 % ruoso has joined #parrot % skv has left skv!~skv_@87.242.97.68 % Ademan has joined #parrot % particle has left particle!~particle@c-24-19-3-148.hsd1.mn.comcast.net % wknight-away has left wknight-away!~nobody@c-71-230-33-251.hsd1.pa.comcast.net % contingencyplan has left contingencyplan!~contingen@cpe-76-186-27-146.tx.res.rr.com % purl has joined #parrot r26577 | fperrad++ | trunk: : [Lua] PAST-pm deprecation : - replace PAST-pm/PAST by PCT/PAST : - replace PAST-pm/POST by Lua/POST (a private copy of PAST-pm/POST) diff: http://parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision/?rev=26577 r26578 | fperrad++ | trunk: : [Lua] : update MANIFEST diff: http://parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision/?rev=26578 % lidden has joined #parrot % iblechbot_ has joined #parrot % iblechbot has left iblechbot!~iblechbot@ppp-62-216-196-190.dynamic.mnet-online.de % particle has joined #parrot % wknight8111 has joined #parrot % rdice has joined #parrot % particl1 has joined #parrot davidfetter, hi... have some time? I'm starting to work on a new project and I'm willing to try some things I'm not so used in db modelling... and I was wondering if I could exchange some ideas with you about it... althought it's certainly offtopic for #parrot and we should probably move it to somewhere else... % mj41 has joined #parrot % wknight8111 has left wknight8111!~nobody@c-71-230-33-251.hsd1.pa.comcast.net % IllvilJa has left IllvilJa!~jilves@emea-netcache1.oracle.co.uk r26579 | fperrad++ | trunk: : [Lua] : - fix POD diff: http://parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision/?rev=26579 % particle has left particle!~JGay@32.141.6.23 % jrt4 has left jrt4!~bojangles@c-24-18-106-126.hsd1.mn.comcast.net % jrt4 has joined #parrot % Limbic_Region has joined #parrot % gryphon has joined #parrot I have made a google doc using gadgets to show pie charts of the bug summary data. If only I could figure out how to say "let anyone see this..." ah, it's in the document, not the document manager. I can see the summary data but not the pie chargs *charts the pie charts are on the next tab. no? i guess no is is no, no is well, maybe. okay, Coke. when I click on "Graphs" I get a page full of boxes with "404 Not Found" perhaps I need to be signed in? possibly. I just "published" the document, try that url: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pvdt32cKG2wmfq74DWgGwFw&output=html Coke's url is at http://xrl.us/bigwt it works after I sign in (the url received via mail) the url you just gave here seems to work even if I'm not signed in one is for collaborators, one is for everybody. the one for collaborators requires sign-in to view the graphs. the one for everybody seems to 'just work' no clue if this will be useful, but it was easy. =-) this is open tickets, or open+new, or ...? it's whatever is coming from the bug summary. =-) ah probably just new+open (it doesn't mention stalled) overview.html already has pie charts? or is that new? The html may have always had them. the email version does not. particl1: ping % nopaste has left nopaste!~opaste@202-154-105-237.people.net.au % TonyC has left TonyC!~tony@202-154-105-237.people.net.au % TonyC has joined #parrot % nopaste has joined #parrot % Andy has joined #parrot * Coke yawns. % GeJ_ has joined #parrot % GeJ has left GeJ!~geraud@edna.nealab.net % kid51 has joined #parrot he's busy. =-) (particle). np, it's not urgent r26580 | jkeenan++ | norevision: : Further work on http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=52154. : Eliminate repository-revision-number related code post-configuration. : Check revision number only if SVN is available. diff: http://parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision/?rev=26580 Wow. only 16 days to get my passport; was told 4-6 weeks. that reminds me, I have to renew my passport - hard to believe it has been 10 years now * kid51 had an 11-week wait for passport renewal last year I wonder if they've just cut through the backlog. Yes, but only because they've outsourced to private contractors who are reading your passport file at this very moment. Coke: feel free to look into the norevision branch re RT 52154. % rdice has left rdice!~richarddi@CPE001217e365c7-CM00159a01d44c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com kid51: roger. % kid51 has left kid51!~jkeen@CPE001839e176e2-CM0018c0d3adea.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com when I got my passport in dec, it only took 10 days I was totally shocked -- I had been expecting a multi-week wait of course, I went ahead and went with "expedited service" they're now selling expedited as 3 weeks, but regular is 4... crazy. well, expedited "guarantees" 3 weeks, but it's often much faster than that. How can I tell configure "use this version of make preferentially"? (cygwin is grabbing mingw32-make instead of the 'make' I type on the command line.) MAKE=path ./configure ? ... doh. --make=; duh. % skids has joined #parrot building parrot on cygwin, I get the following error: runtime/parrot/library/Crow.pir ./parrot.exe -o runtime/parrot/library/Crow.pbc runtime/parrot/library/Crow.pir error:imcc:syntax error, unexpected $end in file 'runtime/parrot/library/Crow.pir' line 146 QueryHash.pir builds fine, though. I don't see anything obvious in that file: it has 146 lines, though. it's the HEREDOC % cognominal has left cognominal!~cognomina@82.67.232.89 % spez has left spez!~spez@c-67-180-145-9.hsd1.ca.comcast.net % cognominal has joined #parrot Is it a Bad Idea to store an INTVAL in visit_info->extra during thawing? % marmic has joined #parrot it works, but it strikes me as questionable % gryphon has left gryphon!~gryphon@dsl-209-221-185-54.zipcon.net ruoso, it was a little early here when you asked, but i do now :) davidfetter, shall we move to private, or some other channel? % gryphon has joined #parrot % IllvilJa has joined #parrot % peeps[work] has joined #parrot % kid51 has joined #parrot % rdice has joined #parrot % lidden has left lidden!~stefan@puce.campus.luth.se feather? it has been said that feather is http://feather.perl6.nl/ or a perl6 community development server % cognominal has left cognominal!~cognomina@82.67.232.89 % svnbotl has left svnbotl!diakopter@feather.perl6.nl % cognominal has joined #parrot % Limbic_Region has left Limbic_Region!www-data@feather.perl6.nl there. I've got a svnbotl replacement that does everything svnbotl does except for identifying the branch it was in (the rss doesn't seem to contain that info), and except for the hanging/timeouts. does anyone know who maintains the rss? I don't know about the rss. diakopter is knowledgeable. Personally, since so much of my work is in branches, I would hate to lose that notation. % svnbotl has joined #parrot % ewilhelm has joined #parrot yeah, that's why I haven't already replaced svnbotl :) without the branch tag, the output is really confusing. Huh, looks like my laptop isn't broken after all. Thanks, Coke! Hey, Coke, what are your hourly rates for laptop repair? 100/hour, 4 hour minimum. What's that measured in commits? Tene: so I was half joking, but lolcode didn't seem to survive the recent merging, if you now have a working laptop... =-) * Coke opens a ticket. * Tene svn up * Coke hates to keep opening tickets! % kid51 has left kid51!~jkeen@toronto-hs-216-138-231-37.s-ip.magma.ca % kid51 has joined #parrot zzzzz what? \ gregor % Psyche^ has joined #parrot % Patterner has left Patterner!~Psyche@e177228148.adsl.alicedsl.de % Psyche^ is now known as Patterner % ruoso has left ruoso!~ruoso@195.23.92.2 % lidden has joined #parrot % sjansen has joined #parrot r26585 | chromatic++ | trunk: : [GC] Fixed a memory leak introduced in r26379. In particular, the : consolidation of Parrot_forall_header_pools() meant that the non-const PMC pool : was never swept or freed during global destruction. diff: http://parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision/?rev=26585 % kid51 has left kid51!~jkeen@toronto-hs-216-138-231-37.s-ip.magma.ca seen tewk? tewk was last seen on #parrot 1 day and 2 hours ago, saying: particl1: Made a couple of minor changes to SoC application. [Mar 26 10:19:18 2008] % barney has joined #parrot msg tewk commented on your soc app. Message for tewk stored. Coke: Cool, do I need to read the comments and revise or is it just part of the SoC process? % particle has joined #parrot you need a comment to edit your proposal. my comment asks you to edit your proposal. =-) basically, looks good, just needs a little polish. hi-o yours is the second parrot application I see. ah, there's particle. particle, see #soc. =-) * Coke knew I should have just waited for him to show... % b2gills has joined #parrot particle: ping (if convenient) I can't find (if in the DNS. I'll be glad to review proposals also :) % anna30 has joined #parrot wazzup? % barney has left barney!~bernhard@dslb-084-058-136-161.pools.arcor-ip.net % anna30 has left anna30!~anna30@d033.dhcp212-198-248.noos.fr obra asked me if it would be possible to get a nice red/green display of rakudo's test suite I think it would be great, but don't know what we need to do to make it happen. Was curious if you wanted to head it up, or if I should throw it open for someone else to hack on...? i'm swamped. it's not hard, especially with TAP::Parser okay just need to find somebody with tuits I'll file an RT ticket and advertise on list fab. i still owe you a ticket % jrt4 has left jrt4!~bojangles@c-24-18-106-126.hsd1.mn.comcast.net np, I have it in my head. Actually, I'll file the ticket now :-) I have about 15 mins to burn % jrt4 has joined #parrot oh, hey, i got a sigplan email for a conference i thought was interesting for you or larry I'll take a look red/green. that could be fun, depending on where sigplan is located this year CFP: SIGPLAN Workshop on Undergraduate Programming Language Curriculum er, for red/green that would "jfw" if it was run by default. (in languages/smoke) coke: there's a ticket for that, yes. coke: not with fudge it wouldn't iirc we haven't been able to get languages/smoke to work with the pct-based languages that's not "the test suite". that's the *spec* test suite. =-) and I don't see why not, if it's running things locally. oh. I think obra's request was more tuned to the *spec* test suite :-) so I was imprecise earlier :) pmichaud: Ok, that's two hurdles, yes. ewilhelm and i spoke briefly about having a day where he, colin and i (and mebbe allison and chromatic) get together to bust out the consolidated test harness obra was thinking that having a graphic chart of what works and what doesn't would be very useful to show progress sure1 particle: if nothing else, we can tackle that at yapc::na. seems like there ought to be a standalone tool that could take TAP output and feed it through the HTML generator ... be nice if there was a list of things to hack on at yapc, actually. % ruoso has joined #parrot (list of things) -- whatever happened to the "high-priority ticket" display? it'd be nice to tie that red/green into the spec as i recall, the problem with perl6 specifically is that the tests look like perl5, neh? (and therefore don't get run with the proper harness?) I want to step back from that a second * Coke addes perl6 to the language testing to see what breaks. I think that the harness is too "integrated" at the moment instead I'd like to have a way of capturing the TAP output from the tests and passing it through another tool to format/collate it however we want as opposed to always trying to do it all within a single process % daxelrod has joined #parrot there's 3 different things going on here: making it worth with the existing system, upgrading the existing system, and rewriting it, and I think you, particle and I are each talking about one of those 3 items. If I can do #1 while we're waiting for #2 or #3, then that's still a win. correct if we can do #1, then #2 and #3 become much less important (and I'd drop the issue altogether) however, it seems that #1 hasn't been easily do-able, which is why I'm exploring #2 and #3 :-) izzit me, or is building something based on PCT slower than the old tools? it may be slower than the older tools I mean, better to spend the time at compile time than runtime (like tcl does...) partially because NQP is using utf-8 when compiling things (c.f. yesterday's conversation on strings) so, NQP is far slower than it ought to be or were you referring to a different aspect of "building something"? pmichaud: here's a link: http://www.sigplan.org/pl-workshop/ i forgot to bring that up at sixperl yesterday Would be interesting to be a fly on the wall at that conference. particle: interesting. however, I probably don't want to spend my time writing a white paper :-) definitely. Absolutely! pmichaud: we can easily spool the test output to a directory tree for that sort of post-mortem html-ifying they want three pages. it's not a lot. you mean post-morifying html? fudge is a bit trickier I guess, what is it exactly? like a pass that fails? yes fudge sets the return value to 1 it's a preprocessor basically, all tests pass, but the result is non-zero you still get a failure with the default tap parser is this as the function-call level, process level, or TAP stream? we need a parser that understands when tests have been fudged particle: we do? why? alternatively, we can have a parameter (or wrapper) to fudge that tells it how to fudge the return code I think we probably want to do that with proper TAP purl: fudge? i think fudge is better :) or for fat fuckers or http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/~tsp i want to know which tests pass without fudge, which pass with fudge, and which fail I thought fudge simply generated a different return code, causing the test to always pass #TODO, but I admit I didn't read it. =-) no, fudge is http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/~tsp okay, Coke. the goal is for all tests to pass without fudge 403 ewilhelm: fudge does preprocessing on the tests so that the compiler (rakudo) is able to skip tests it doesn't know how to parse yet http://svn.pugscode.org/t/fudge i.e., fudge is a test file preprocessor 404 http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/t/spec/fudge oops, t/spec/fudge * ewilhelm having hard time gleaning docs from error pages :-D argh. http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/t/spec/fudge so it basically does on-the-fly TODO and SKIP insertion? yep a bit more than that, actually based on the comments in the source the 'skip' insertion actually comments out the tests #?rakudo skip 1 <-- does nothing in pugs well, if running the result gives valid TAP, then it is just a matter of having your ./prove do the prep work hmm, how does the comment-out work WRT the plan()? skip substitutes 'skip' lines in the TAP output AndyA: you following any of this? i.e., it comments out the tests and effectively replaces them with 'skip' results ok, so it does leave placeholders in the TAP yeah, that should work fine it makes a new file fudge rakudo foo.t # creates foo.rakudo we still need to form, fire, and glaze the Test::Harness API, but this all sounds workable then foo.rakudo is passed to perl perl? rumour has it perl is or a rather nice compromise between lisp, c and my native spoken language or a 4 letter word *perl6 generally just use t/spec/fudgeall preprocess all the files that prove wants to run automatically maps the fudged filenames in the list for you right, parrot's existing prove was built to read the shebang and pass to the appropriate parrot call then whatever calls *that* program :) TimToady: should it be possible to insert a source filter in perl5 so that if it sees a "use v6;" in the perl source it exec's parrot instead? % wknight8111 has joined #parrot actually, rakudo's tests are passed to perl t/harness perl t/harness t/spec/S03-operators/foo.rakudo actually * ewilhelm needs to break you all of some of those habits perl t/harness --fudge t/spec/S02-literals Coke: well, a better question is whether you can do it without source filtering... (seems like it runs the use before it does the source filter.) ./prove --fudge t/spec/ TimToady: perhaps by somehow overriding 'use v6;' - except that isn't a normal pragma, izzit? does/can 'prove' understand a --fudge option? (I'm showing my testing system ignorance here) oooh, it does work. pmichaud: we have control of the option handling -- it is ./prove not `prove` Coke: the prove implementation can exec parrot "coke" at 72.228.52.192 pasted "itle" (23 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/12584 why is "./prove" better than "perl t/harness"? pmichaud: same deal, but only one harness for all of parrot not languages/foo/t/harness, etc so you're saying we need to come up with a better t/harness that can handle all of our languages yes. one yes. one is sendmail, and the other is smail. purl: one is also less than n okay, ewilhelm. as an aside, if I run 'perl5 -I. -Msixperl path/to/rakduo/test.t' with that nopaste, it dies with "run parrot". https://svn.perl.org/parrot/branches/unified_testing/tools/util/runtests so we could shim that in as a stopgap to exec parrot perl6.pbc ewilhelm's url is at http://xrl.us/bihof Coke: see line 113 --^ we get the pbc from the shebang not for the spec tests. neh? ...the shebang doesn't have a pbc why not? because the spec tests are for all of the perl6 implementations, not just rakudo well, are they valid perl 6? however, the unified t/harness could provide the pbc ewilhelm: yes, but how do you tell perl5 that? yeah, just add a special-case for detecting '^use v6-alpha' and pretend it is like a shebang some languages don't allow a shebang like which? it has been said that like which is easier and which works faster/more efficient/better? pheme particle: presumably those won't look remarkably like perl5 and use the same file extension. (scheme) % kj has joined #parrot if we have a unified t/harness that understands parrot's language's tree, then we don't need the test files to specify the pbc or language if you can extend the shebang there, that's great: what's stopping us from rolling this back into trunk? =-) perldreamer got fed-up waiting for changes to Test::Harness or at least that's my guess judging from the irc/svn logs pmichaud: yeah, I think we probably just need something like a config of globs mapped to pbc's or dirs not globs some languages have mixed language tests it would suck if those languages also couldn't use shebangs particle: any other than tcl? parrot's t/op/ uses perl and pir (why would shebangs stop working?) AndyA: I can haz API? scheme doesn't see # as a comment char and doesn't accept #! as valid input particle: who are you talking to? i mean, doesn't parse #! as a shebang the peanut gallery. am i in the right channel? I was trying to figure out if you were answer my question, or still beating the scheme thread from 4m ago. or something else. Coke: shebangs could keep working wherever a dir was not config'd as long as a single harness for all languages is flexible enough for us, let's do it line 107 s/unless/elsif/ then we'd only need config'd dirs where shebangs didn't work... which is the small set of places we're already at. yep, or whatever sort of magic identifier you want we need this unified because we can't test our compiler toolkit at the moment except by building languages... which we can't smoke. so we're flying blind. er, "sooner than later". ewilhelm: are you the defacto "champion" for the unified branch? If I can get api changes into T::H without them getting reverted, yes :P ah, there he is What do you need ? i heard do you need was rw? AndyA: the parrot's 'prove' has never gotten into a form that would be stable WRT T::H OK e.g. overrides of _get_parser_args(), trouble with @ARGV handback, etc https://svn.perl.org/parrot/branches/unified_testing/tools/util/runtests ewilhelm's url is at http://xrl.us/bihoy pmichaud: I think it would also benefit from some executive decisions in cleanup, layout, and config policy on the parrot side which is where the PNW locals might be able to help OK, my head's elsewhere at the moment. Is there a mailing list we could move it to? I'm in async mode right now :) ewilhelm: if you need a decision on something on the parrot side, I can drive that. I don't have much to add to the cleanup/layout/config policy on the parrot side, other than for it to remain as sane as possible AndyA: your pipermail's are 403 http://www.hexten.net/pipermail/tapx-dev/ Ah - thanks. Willfix. I'll revisit this a bit later -- gotta take daugher to soccer *daughter http://www.google.com/search?q=parrot+runtests+site%3Ahexten.net ewilhelm's url is at http://xrl.us/bihpc * diakopter watches as Infinoid works magic with SVN::Web and botnix % wknight8111 has left wknight8111!~nobody@c-71-230-33-251.hsd1.pa.comcast.net * Infinoid FAILS to work magic with SVN::Web and botnix * Coke wonders how to get a glob into an array. "Coke" at 72.228.52.192 pasted "instead of perl path/to/rakudo.t, use perl -Msixperl path/to/rakudo.t." (26 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/12586 * Coke neverminds. with sixperl.pm and adding -M to the invocation of the script, this works. this may be enough of a hack to get us moving forwardin trunk. % skids has left skids!bri@charon.clarku.edu where could I find some info on setting up a development environment for Parrot on OSX? cotto_work: Install the developer tools. This gives you all the comand line tools you need. (as well as XCode, if you want the GUI; parrot's build doesn't use xcode, just gcc) thanks you can install gcc *without* xcode? % daxelrod has left daxelrod!~daxelrod@x-15-04.dynamic2.rpi.edu % wknight8111 has joined #parrot % Ademan_ has joined #parrot % Ademan_ has left Ademan_!~dan@h-68-164-168-66.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net how do I go about calling a function, using PIR, that's in a different namespace then where I am currently? get_hll_global, or maybe get_root_global? Retrieve the object into a register and then invoke that object=sub not entirely sure which one you should use.. but at least you can specify the namespace. okay, thanks. The docs don't seem to have this piece of info, and it seems like it should be absurdly common it should be added to compiler_faq I think it's a good question find_global, i found it. Thanks % kj has left kj!~IceChat7@ip565fd420.direct-adsl.nl it's in the namespaces pdd iirc some kind of syntactic sugar would be nice for that % sjansen has left sjansen!~sjansen@hq-nat2.gurulabs.com like 'namespace':'function'(params) or ['name';'spaces']'function'(params) but that's just my opinion on it feel free to submit a ticket or ping the list % rdice has left rdice!~richard_d@CPE0014bfafbbd5-CM0011e6ecf48a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com % particl2 has joined #parrot I dont like complaining about things that I'm not prepared to fix myself % Khisanth has left Khisanth!~Khisanth@68.237.111.126 % particle has left particle!~JGay@32.136.165.110 % Khisanth has joined #parrot % particl2 has left particl2!~JGay@32.142.234.132 % dalek has left dalek!dalek@feather.perl6.nl % dalek has joined #parrot * diakopter waits for a commit % cotto_home has left cotto_home!~cotto@75-92-237-130.sea.clearwire-dns.net % skids has joined #parrot % dalek has left dalek!dalek@feather.perl6.nl % peepsalot has left peepsalot!~peeps@cpe-67-9-161-48.austin.res.rr.com % dalek has joined #parrot % peepsalot has joined #parrot % iblechbot_ has left iblechbot_!~iblechbot@ppp-62-216-196-82.dynamic.mnet-online.de % peeps[work] has left peeps[work]!~peepsalot@bwext.kpimdp.com % gryphon has left gryphon!~gryphon@dsl-209-221-185-54.zipcon.net does pdb still exist? "make pdb" doesnt seem to work on my system wknight8111: try make world If you're on Win32, you may need make pdb.exe that works, thanks de nada ewilhelm: ewilhelm: "this gives us all the command line tools you need, as well as xcode, if you want the gui). it also does if it you don't want the gui. =-) wknight8111: don't use find_global. It's deprecated. yeah, i've already gotten rid of it. For future reference, what should I use in it's place? % slightlyoff has joined #parrot find_no_globals() get_hll_global or get_global $P0 = get_hll_global ['Other';'Namespace'], 'foo' $P0() okay, thanks get_hll_global reads from a namespace relative to the (hll) root get_global reads relative to the current namespace ok, that makes sense % lidi20 has joined #parrot % GeJ_ has left GeJ_!~geraud@edna.nealab.net % lidi20 has left lidi20!~lidi20@d033.dhcp212-198-248.noos.fr * jonathan finally gets around to scribbling a Rakudo blog post oooh, ya beat me to it :-) seen ambs? ambs was last seen on #parrot 5 days and 7 hours ago, saying: now I just need to get rid of that complain to the undefined function 'link' [Mar 22 09:46:55 2008] pmichaud: I'm sure you'll write a more general/comprehensive one. also "get_root_global", iIRC. http://use.perl.org/~JonathanWorthington/journal/35993 Only talked about pairs and subset. % Psyche^ has joined #parrot % GeJ has joined #parrot seen chromatic? seen allison? seen chromatic? chromatic was last seen on #parrot 22 hours and 17 minutes ago, saying: Works for me. seen seen allison? seen allison? allison was last seen on #parrot 16 days and 4 hours ago, saying: jonathan: yes, it's there now [Mar 11 12:56:49 2008] (argh) seen Coke? Coke was last seen on #parrot 13 seconds ago, saying: (argh) *smack* % Patterner has left Patterner!~Psyche@92.224.105.88 % Psyche^ is now known as Patterner % svnbotl has left svnbotl!diakopter@feather.perl6.nl * jonathan posts it on rakudo.org too ETOOMANYBLOGS * Coke needs a blog aggregator that is smart enough to weed out duplicate posts. (across feeds) * Coke <3's amazon, briefly. * lathos reads the meeting minutes, finds out he has work to do. *whip crack* * Coke offers lathos a free cookie. Yeah, I wish there were one place to post it too. Anyway, sleep...got flight to Uk tomorrow for wedding. what would cause a "null PMC in invoke()" error in my compiler before the TOP rule has even started? % jrt4 has left jrt4!~bojangles@c-24-18-106-126.hsd1.wa.comcast.net % jrt4 has joined #parrot You spelt something wrong? did you do a find_global and try to invoke something without checking to make sure you found it? no, i dont use "find_global" anywhere I have a debug statement as the very first thing in my TOP rule, and that never triggers. so no action rules are getting called I should have put this under version control so I could revert back before this not specifially find_global, but some kind of lookup. "how are you invoking TOP?" did you just use the language shell maker? yeah exactly. language shell maker. I call 'command_line'(args) without problem, i get to the interactive shell no problem