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<Zaba> my %hash = (test => "moep"); <-- this is not valid perl6, right?
* ambs hopes it is
<ambs> but I have *no* idea
<ambs> :D
<Zaba> it causes rakudo to segfault
<Zaba> or well parrot, more like
<jonathan> Zaba: It's valid Perl 6, but use the colonpair notation for paris at the moment.
<jonathan> Segfault is...pretty extreme.
<Zaba> jonathan, hm?
<Zaba> lemme bt full it
<jonathan> my %hash = (:test("moep"));
<Zaba> oh.
<ambs> yuck
<Zaba> http://rafb.net/p/htOdEt53.html
<ambs> purl, seen coke
<Zaba> here's bt full
<purl> coke was last seen on #parrot 17 hours and 6 minutes ago, saying: pmichaud: new ticket with a see also is probably best, since you're asking for something else. =-) 
<ambs> purl, seen merlyn
<purl> merlyn was last seen on #moose 35 days and 15 hours ago, saying: ... http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/library/post/the-year-of-smalltalk.html  [Mar 20 15:09:20 2008]
<Zaba> code: my %hash = (test => 'moep');
<Zaba> jonathan, ^
<pmichaud> I don't think rakudo understands list assignment yet
<pmichaud> and I'm not sure that hash knows how to be assigned a list
<pmichaud> or, in this case, a Pair
<cognominal>  not for hashes
<pmichaud> I still need to apply the patch that adds the hash composer, but the code needs to be cleaned up a bit
<pmichaud> (it doesn't follow any recognizable coding standard)
<cognominal> what I need to do to comply?
<Zaba> so the code it segfaults in will be changed anyway?
<pmichaud> consistent indentation, primarily
<cognominal> oh
<cognominal> Zaba : problemes is the list operator when using with 0 and 1 operands
<cognominal> I have filed a bug
<Zaba> okay.
<pmichaud> s/list operator/list context
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<pmichaud> in    my %hash = ( foo => 'bar' );    there is no "list operator"  :-)
<cognominal> I meant the coma operator
<jonathan> pmichaud: fatarrow doesn't work because it doesn't parse to item assignment...
<jonathan> So the RHS of the => swallows up everything, and if there's commas, it makes a list.
<Zaba> I suppose that's wrong?
<pmichaud> jonathan: okay, makes sense
<pmichaud> is it correct in STD.pm ?
<jonathan> It's not an issue, in theory, if you're just having one element.
<jonathan> pmichaud: STD.pm is correct, but we can't do what it does yet, I don't think.
<jonathan> I left a comment in the grammar.
<jonathan> Saying what it should be.
<Zaba> why can't STD.pm be used?..
<pmichaud> we can do it with a custom parse routine
<pmichaud> Zaba: there isn't anything that can execute STD.pm yet
<Zaba> oh... right
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<pmichaud> STD.pm uses constructs that we haven't implemented (and aren't likely to implement until the summer sometime)
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<Zaba> pmichaud, like which?
<pmichaud> proto regexes, primarily
<Zaba> I see
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<Zaba> what is used for character classes in perl6 regexes?
<pmichaud> enumerated character classes?    <[aeiou]>
<cognominal> pmichaud, do you know how to fix the namespace for  named rules in grammar?
<Zaba> oh, makes sense
<pmichaud> cognominal: I don't understand the question
<cognominal> grammar A {   token a { }  } ;  # the pir code generated has an empty namespace insead of A
<pmichaud> have to pass a 'grammar' option to the PGE rule that compiles the token
<cognominal> you mean that the change does not involve PGE but the way it is called?
<pmichaud> correct.
<purl> no, it's not!
<pmichaud> so I should rephrase it as  "have to pass a 'grammar' option to the PGE::Perl6Regex compiler"
<pmichaud> I think I toyed with the idea of changing the option name to 'namespace' instead, for consistency with other components
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<nopaste> "cognominal" at 82.67.232.89 pasted "hash composer" (96 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/12813
<cognominal> is that better?
<pmichaud> a little.  still doesn't completely line up (at the bottom)
<cognominal> arf
<pmichaud> need quotes around 'Iterator'
<cognominal> is there a tool to check it complies?
<pmichaud> there might be a pir coding stds test 
<pmichaud> might look in t/codingstd/
<pmichaud> in many cases I think it would be better to use the Perl 6 functions rather than the Parrot opcodes, though
<pmichaud> thus,   'die'(errstr)   instead of   die errstr
<pmichaud> and   the equivalent of    Hash.new()  instead of   $P0 = new 'Hash'  
<cognominal> indeed.
<particle> there's no pir codingstd test yet
<ambs> All tests successful
<purl> Guess your work here is done, ambs. Your notice of intestination will arrive shortly.
<pmichaud> particle++ # thanks
<particle> i really wanna write a hlltidy based on parse trees generated by pct, and written in nqp
<particle> but nqp might not be good enough
<jonathan> particle: Write it in Rakudo. ;-)
<Zaba> what is hll?
<purl> i heard hll was High Level Language
<cognominal> how far rakudo is from compiling itself?
<particle> jonathan: could do. suppose it'd be a good test
<particle> *very*
<particle> far, that is.
<pmichaud> depends on what one means by "compiling itself"
<Zaba> umm, rakudo isn't written in perl6, is it?
<particle> many parts of it are
<jonathan> Well, not really...rakudo can already do everything NQP can, almost?
<pmichaud> the grammar and actions for rakudo are written in Perl 6
<pmichaud> there there are some support functions and runtime builtins that are written in PIR
<pmichaud> Rakudo doesn't have an equivalent of NQP's   PIR q<...>;
<cognominal> here-document is missing too.
<Zaba> pmichaud, is it possible to write all builtins in perl6?
<pmichaud> Zaba:  my theory is no
<pmichaud> Zaba:  if you can tell me how to write infix:+ in Perl 6, then maybe.
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<Zaba> pmichaud, well, maybe some are?
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<pmichaud> sure, I think that many are.  That's a definite goal for us.
<pmichaud> But lots of them aren't.
<Zaba> for example, say can be implemented through print..
<pmichaud> Even something like 'substr' seems like it would be difficult to write in Perl 6
<Zaba> pmichaud, even with regexes?
<pmichaud> zaba:  well, here's a canonical example
<pmichaud> just a sec, nopasting
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<nopaste> "pmichaud" at 76.183.97.54 pasted "code for 'substr' in PIR" (16 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/12815
<pmichaud> so, if there's a Perl 6 version that can be written more understandably and efficiently than that, we could use it.
<pmichaud> but I'm doubtful.
<Zaba> hmm
<pmichaud> and even the "new 'Perl6Str'"  portion will go away soon
<pmichaud> actually, it should go away now and be replaced with prefix:<~>
<pmichaud> In any (efficient) language implementation, I think there are always some primitives that are written in some language other than itself
<Zaba> maybe..
<cognominal> my modified hash composer works with item, array, hashes but still has a problem with pairs
<pmichaud> cognominal: fat arrow pairs, or all pairs ?
<cognominal> all pairs
<cognominal> > say :a.perl
<cognominal> Segmentation fault
<purl> (Core dumped)
<cognominal> ouch
<pmichaud> :a.perl  doesn't use the hash composer function, does it?
<pmichaud> Zaba: anyway, things like substr and infix:+ are why I haven't been on a strong push to try to get "every builtin written in Perl 6".  For some builtins, that's actually more work (and less efficient) than just writing the PIR.
<Zaba> hmm
<cognominal> no
<pmichaud> that said, it would be very interesting to see someone come up with a pure Perl 6 definition of every builtin.  :-)
<cognominal> and it will oblige us to optimize the compiler to avoid deal with pads everywhere
<jonathan> cognominal: Having seen the backtrace for the pairs issue, can kinda see what's going on.
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<particle> src\gc\dod.c(338) : warning C4098: 'pobject_lives' : 'void' function returning a value
<jonathan> Might do us well to just write a Pair class ourselve though. And not use the Parrot PMC. It's not really what we want.
<pmichaud> Is there an important advantage to using Parrot's built-in Pair class?
<jonathan> Not that I can think of.
<pmichaud> I was a little surprised that we did that in the first place.
<pmichaud> My plan was always to create a Pair class in PIR, if not Perl 6
<particle> who broke my gc? aargh. time to go hunting.
<cognominal> say :a.value  crashed too
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<pmichaud> I'm strongly in favor of ripping Parrot's Pair PMC out of Rakudo entirely
<jonathan> pmichaud: Do it.
<Zaba> brb
<jonathan> Or let someone beat you to it.
<pmichaud> (for that matter, I'm strongly in favor of ripping Parrot's Pair PMC out of Parrot entirely, but that's a different call)
<jonathan> :-)
* particle agrees with pmichaud
<pmichaud> I'm travelling to a conference for the weekend, so I won't get to it until early next week
<pmichaud> at least, I doubt I'll get to it until Sunday at the earliest.  
<cognominal> thx anyway for commenting my code.
<cognominal> I need feddback to make progress
<pmichaud> I am eager to apply the hash composer patch, because it will help us out in a lot of areas
<cognominal> I can't test if for pairs now
<pmichaud> I might just apply it and add comments about things I think need to be changed
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<nopaste> "cognominal" at 82.67.232.89 pasted "hash composer" (97 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/12817
<cognominal> yes please
<pmichaud> I think the hash composer probably also wants a   .param pmc pairs :slurpy :named    argument
* particle fixes a poorly placed #endif and recompiles
<cognominal> jonathan: I tried to fix    my @a = [ 1 ].   I expected +$<statement> to give me the length of the statement
<pmichaud> so that it can pick up     hash(:a(5), :b, :!c)      (assuming that's a valid way to pass pairs to the hash composer -- need to check synopses)
<pmichaud> +$<statement>  will return the numified value of $<statement>'s result object
<cognominal> how can I get to $<statements>  length
<pmichaud> "length" isn't a valid concept in Perl 6.  Do you mean "number of characters"?
<cognominal> I meant it the number of kids matches
<pmichaud> ah, number of elements
<pmichaud> $<statements>.elems()
<cognominal> ho
<pmichaud> (I'm not sure that's implemented, but that's the correct way to do it)
<pmichaud> could also do
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<pmichaud> +@($<statement>)
<pmichaud> (numify the array component of $<statement>)
<pmichaud> I know that +@($<statement>)  should work in NQP
<pmichaud> have to do $job for a bit
<dalek> r27161 | particle++ | trunk:
<dalek> : [gc] fix poorly placed '}' preventing compilation
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27161
<cognominal> my @a = [ 1 ]  and my @a = ( 1)  are supposed to be the same thing?
<particle> jonathan: any progress with tapx?
<cognominal> tapx?
<ambs> tcl failing
<ambs> t/cmd_lsort.t    1   256    21    0  ??
<ambs> 1 subtest skipped.
<particle> ambs: known, iirc. coke?
<particle> cognominal: TAP::Parser, Test::Harness 3.x
<ambs> particle, good
<particle> we've really got to improve our spectest failure reports
<jonathan> particle: Not had chance to look yet, sorry.
<Coke> technically, it passed all the tests. =-)
<Coke> it's the inferior runloop problem.
<Coke> (I'm throwing an exception from PIR through C back into PIR)
<particle> cognominal: i asked AndyA to give us some love from those modules. in tapx's svn repo (http://svn.hexten.net/tapx/trunk) he added an option allowing us to ignore the exit code from the test files
<particle> using that enables us to mark as passing those fudged tests which pass
<particle> (as all fudged tests return exit code 1 atm)
<particle> however, i wonder if there's a better way to mark which test files have been fudged
<particle> perhaps their file extension is enough
<Tene> Mmm... new laptop... can't wait to compile parrot on it.
<particle> tene: what kind? i got my t61 tuedsay.
<Tene> t61p
<pmichaud> what's the reason for fudged test returning exit code 1 ?
<particle> that's nvidia gfx, right?
<particle> pmichaud: to distinguish it from non-fudged tests
<Tene> yeah, nvidia gfx
<particle> i got internal gfx to save battery
<pmichaud> particle:  seems like that should be a command-line option to *fudge* then, not to the harness
<pmichaud> i.e., we should be able to tell fudge  "don't report fudged tests as failing"
<particle> pmichaud: that's just what i was thinking about
<Tene> I considered that, but I like having this many pixels.
<Tene> I'm thinking about getting the ultrabay battery, though.
<pmichaud> the default invocation can return a failing code -- that makes sense.  But if someone passes an option to fudge saying "pass fudged tests", then I think that's in the realm of "all's fair if you predeclare"
<particle> pmichaud: is there a mode into which i can put pge so it will capture whitespace?
<particle> pmichaud: i'll code it up
<pmichaud> particle:  I think you're asking for :keepall  
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<particle> is that implemented?
<pmichaud> (PGE doesn't implement :keepall yet)
<particle> didn't think so.
<pmichaud> but I think that's what you're asking for.  :-)
<particle> ok.
<particle> yes, i think so, too.
<particle> really, i just want :keep(<ws>)
<pmichaud> essentially it says to go ahead and capture non-capturing subrules
<particle> or whatever
<pmichaud> what about <ws> that might occur inside of some other non-captured subrule?
<particle> iunno. probably that too
<particle> anyway, i can deal without any of it.
<particle> however, i'd like to know what's best to use to manipulate the parse tree... nqp or tge
<pmichaud> yes.  The start positions for each parse node are there, though, so you could infer the <ws> from that.
<particle> yes, kinda
<particle> \n is lost
<pmichaud> personally, I'd use nqp, but only because I'm more familiar with it
<pmichaud> ...\n is lost?
<particle> \r\n
<pmichaud> not really
<particle> darn it.
<particle> i really need to finish that yaml dumper
<pmichaud> if you just keep the original source string around (and it's there, in the match nodes themselves), then you can easily use the positions to see the whitespace
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<Coke> particle: (yaml dumper) I was expecting an email or something some time ago with what you thought you had left.
<particle> ah, right.
<Coke> even if I don't get to it, open a ticket or something with the remaining tasks.
<particle> what's the syntax for patch? patch -p0 . <file.patch ??
<pmichaud> patch -p0 <file.patch
<pmichaud> assuming that the paths in file.patch correspond to the current directory
<particle> doesn't seem to be working here. hrmm.
<particle> yep
<PerlJam> try -p1
<pmichaud> if the paths are    a/languages/perl6/...   and b/languages/perl6/...   then use -p1
<pmichaud> if the paths are languages/perl6/... in both cases then use -p0
<pmichaud> (-p indicates the number of directory prefixes to strip before applying the patch)
* particle used the visual patch util since cmdline wasn't working
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* jonathan has had some windows patch programs getting horribly confused over line endings before now
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<ambs> purl, squaak?
<purl> wish i knew, ambs
<particle> squaak is languages/squaak or the language in kj's tutorial at parrotblog.org
<particle> squaak?
<purl> it has been said that squaak is languages/squaak or the language in kj's tutorial at parrotblog.org
<ambs> particle, that didn't help much
<particle> what are you looking for?
<ambs> what kind of language? Just another strange one? :)
<pmichaud> squaak is also http://svn.perl.rog/parrot/trunk/languages/squaak/
<purl> okay, pmichaud.
<wknight8111> it's based on Lua, if i recall
<particle> i have no idea, i haven't read the tutorial
<pmichaud> iwbni squaak had a README file there
<Infinoid> squaak?
<purl> i think squaak is languages/squaak or the language in kj's tutorial at parrotblog.org or http://svn.perl.rog/parrot/trunk/languages/squaak/
<wknight8111> but it's a toy language, used for demonstration only
<pmichaud> and the README could point to the current tutorial location, whatever it is
<ambs> wknight8111, ok, that was what I was looking for
<Infinoid> no, squaak is languages/squaak or the language in kj's tutorial at parrotblog.org or http://svn.perl.org/parrot/trunk/languages/squaak/
<purl> okay, Infinoid.
<pmichaud> maybe I'll grab a README from the parrotblog text
<Infinoid> (fix typo in perl.rog :))
<pmichaud> Infinoid: thanks
<pmichaud> my fingers aren't in the irght place thsi morning
<Infinoid> strangely, I type better when I haven't really woken up yet
<ambs> :D
<ambs> compiling parrot makes my mbp hot
* particle hopes nobody added the hcf op to parrot's mac compile
<particle> hcf?
<purl> hcf is halt and catch fire or (: foldoc hcf) or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halt_and_Catch_Fire
<ambs> :D
<particle> hcf is also an experimental parrot opcode
<purl> okay, particle.
<ambs> mbp is landing
<ambs> Usual test failing on mac
<ambs> t/examples/library.t                       (Wstat: 256 Tests: 4 Failed: 1)
<ambs>   Failed test:  3
<ambs> pmichaud++ # readme for squaak
<dalek> r27162 | coke++ | trunk:
<dalek> : [codingstd]
<dalek> : update to new ops syntax to avoid generating code that will never
<dalek> : be executed.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27162
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<ambs> l8r
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* Tene svn co parrot
<pmichaud> (squaak readme)   note that all I did was write the message to the list -- I didn't add it to the repo yet.  Hopefully someone else can do that, since I'm kinda pre-occupied today.
<Debolaz> Tene: You can also git clo it now. :-)
<Debolaz> (Read-only of course)
<Tene> Debolaz: I usually use git-svn, actually.
<Tene> real	0m55.664s
<Tene> user	1m23.690s
<Tene> sys	0m12.970s
<Tene> for make -j 3
* particl1 needs to partition his hdd and install hearty
% particl1 is now known as particle
<Zaba> hearty?
<Tene> new ubuntu release
<particle> yep, came out yesterday
<particle> hearty heron
* Debolaz needs a perl6 based project to play with.. A small web framework perhaps.
<Debolaz> Does rakudo support sockets?
<Tene> Not yet, I think
<particle> no, just $*IN, $*OUT, $*ERR
<Debolaz> :~(
<particle> .open, .readline
<Debolaz> Yeah, readline was the result of my nagging. :-)
<Zaba> is it standard?
<particle> keep nagging!
<pmichaud> "hardy"
<pmichaud> installed the new release last night :-)
* Zaba doesn't use ubuntu
<pmichaud> kubuntu, here
* Zaba doesn't use .*ubuntu
<Zaba> :>
<Tene> rakudo is real 0m36s
<particle> er, right. hardy.
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<particle> tene: you get 2.6GHz?
<Tene> particle: 2.5
<particle> i'm faster :P
<Coke> Our compiler warnings should probably follow the same path as our codingstd warnings: only enable those we expect to pass, and have everything else be checked if you verbosely ask for it (in this case with --cage at the config step) - then once something passes we can move it from --cage to the default. make sense?
<Tene> particle: how much ram?
<particle> 4GB
<Tene> Same.  HD?
<pmichaud> coke:  makes sense to me
<particle> 200GB 7200kps
<particle> coke: we're already doing that, no?
<particle> msvc compiles with warnings at the highest level below 'all'
<Coke> particle: ISTR I'm getting build warnings, and cannot remember the last time I saw something move from --cage to teh default.
<Coke> (which may be cause none were fixed)
<particle> i haven't seen any new warnings flags added lately.
<particle> likely your warnings are due to new code
<Coke> define "new"
<Coke> since the last time someone touched the warnings flags?
<Coke> yah, default build on feather has warnings.
<Zaba> feather?
<purl> feather is probably http://feather.perl6.nl/ or a perl6 community development server
<Zaba> oh.
<nopaste> "coke" at 72.228.52.192 pasted "warnings from build on feather." (28 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/12818
<particle> yes, coke. chromatic has been playing with jit code in the past week
<particle> ...or two.
<Coke> those are not warnings from the last week. =-)
* particle has had build warnings for 5 years
<Coke> ... nevermind.
<particle> those are good warnings, from what i can see
<particle> the code should be fixed
<pmichaud> particle: I agree, but coke is saying that short of fixing them (which seems to be taking a long time), they should appear only in response to a --cage flag
<pmichaud> otherwise we're in the habit of not looking at warnings at all, and never see when new warnings appear
<pmichaud> (because the new ones get drowned out by the existing ones)
<particle> i guess i missed that part.
<pmichaud> it took me a second read to completely understand it as well
<particle> compile a list of known files with known warnings, and disable them in the regular build?
<particle> we do have a CFLAGS file
<particle> similar to that
<pmichaud> particle: something like that, yes.  But keep the regular build as free of warnings as we can, and use --cage to do a more rigorous test for warnings
<pmichaud> much like we have some tests in codingstds that aren't run by default
<pmichaud> when specific warning conditions are cleared, they can be moved from --cage to the default
<particle> iirc there is a --cage build or configure flag
<particle> maybe i'm wrong
<particle> i think i'm getting confused with the splint work andy was doing with ptc
<cognominal> pct?
<purl> it has been said that pct is a good solution, but heavyweight or the Parrot Compiler Toolkit
<cognominal> ptc?
<purl> ptc is paul t cochrane or mailto:paultcochrane@gmail.com
<particle> svn st
<Infinoid> splint is a pain
<particle> grr
<Coke> there. opened two tickets which cover the majority of the extant warnings I see.
<dalek> r27163 | particle++ | trunk:
<dalek> : [rakudo] ws and formatting fixups in actions.pm
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27163
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<particle> rakudo's action file has way too many subs over 50 lines
<particle> many are ~150
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<Infinoid> is that a codingstd issue?
<particle> we don't have coding standards for perl 6 code yet :)
<particle> it's certainly a maintenance issue
<Infinoid> yes... I was just wondering if we had standards yet :)
<particle> mccabe complexity is way too high
<Coke> I don't think file size is necessarily an indicator of complexity.
<Coke> particle: are you referring to "cyclomatic complexity" ?
<particle> yep
<particle> coke: subroutine size is an indicator. it's strongly correllated
<particle> but, these are complex subs, with many nested if/else
<Coke> but that's not a function of *file size*.
<Coke> that's a function of subroutine size.
<Coke> neh?
<particle> what did i say about file size?
<Coke> ... nothing, apparently. whoops.
<particle> :)
* Coke opens a final ticket for the remaining current warnings.
<particle> coke++
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<Debolaz> Gah, not being able to write Foo.bar ("argument"); is weird.
<particle> try Foo.bar\ ("argument");
<Debolaz> Still weird. :-)
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<Debolaz> But since I don't have to enclose if, while, etc, in () anymore, I guess I can get used to hugging the ()'s on method calls.
* particle thinks putting spaces between the method and the params is weird
<Debolaz> I used to do it, since I wanted if () and function () to look the same. Ie, my brain parses if as a type of function even though I am aware it isn't.
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<ambs> particl*: added the signature you requested :)
<particl1> thanks!
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<TimToady> cultural sensitivity is the new cultural imperialism
<TimToady> perl 6's whitespace rules are a form of cultural imperialism that enforces cultural sensitivity  :)
<particle> long live the king!
<pmichaud> TimToady: btw, if you haven't received it yet, my package should be arriving today or tomorrow
<TimToady> 'kay
<pmichaud> inside is a postage return label -- I think you will be able to reuse the box
<TimToady> probably can't return it till Tue at the earliest, depending on how my tests Monday go
<pmichaud> that's fine
<Debolaz> Is there a way to get coercion for arguments in perl6 similar to how the Moose type system does it?
<Debolaz> And I suppose even more important: Is it implemented if so?
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<TimToady> Debolaz: given that Moose is based on the p6 OO design, I'd like to know where it diverges...
<TimToady> and whether those divergences are just making up for having to run on p5...
<Debolaz> Well, what I'm specifically looking for is this: http://search.cpan.org/~stevan/Moose-0.40/lib/Moose/Cookbook/Recipe5.pod
<shorten> Debolaz's url is at http://xrl.us/bjtqd
<Debolaz> I'm looking through the p6 synopsis, but can't really find anything similar..
<Debolaz> So I was hoping for some pointers in the right direction.
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<particle> port Params::Coerce to perl 6?
<particle> ;)
<Debolaz> particle: Ie, I'm not crazy or just reading the wrong documents, there really is nothing directly equivalent for p6? It's not a disaster, I'd just like to know that I'm not missing something obvious.. :)
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* particle *almost* has fudge* and rakudo test code reporting errors how we want them
<Tene> particle++
<PerlJam> particle++
<TimToady> you want them to report errors as "passed" don't you?  :)
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<PerlJam> Debolaz: are you saying that you think perl 6 doesn't do type coercion?   I seem to recall that it does if you specify the appropriate transformation routines (otherwise how would you coerce a Dog into a String?)
<TimToady> Debolaz: looks to me like it's mostly just trying to make up for a lack of MMD in p5
<Debolaz> Multi method dispatching is something I hate with a passion.
<TimToady> are there also any rational reasons?
<Debolaz> Well, I just feel it's very unelegant. It works, but it has always just screamed "workaround for lack of elegant solutions" to me.
<TimToady> I think that, by definition, the least inelegant solution is elegant.  :)
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<Debolaz> class Foo; coerce from Bar with $bar -> { Foo.new($bar) }; method something (Foo $a is coercible) {}; # Something like this would be more elegant imho.
<Debolaz> The method is no longer required to deeply understand how Foo is constructed, and there doesn't need to be 10+ multimethods for every real method that wants to use coercible parameters.
<Debolaz> PerlJam: I'm not saying I think that, I'm asking.
<TimToady> this can probably be solved with "does Coercible" or some such
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<TimToady> in any case, the fact that there is a set of types that should be coercible probably means you haven't factored the roles right yet.
<TimToady> mmd with roles is a much different beast than mmd with classes
<dalek> r27164 | particle++ | trunk:
<dalek> : [rakudo] generalize command-line argument processing in the test harness
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27164
<Debolaz> TimToady: Are there any specific examples I can look at? Keep in mind, my background is primarily with Moose, p6 is relatively new to me. :)
<Debolaz> TimToady: Because this doesn't really make sense in my head, it reads to me that you recommend requiring a specific interface (As defined by the role) instead of a specific class, but what I want is to handle arguments which does not support the required interface at all.
<PerlJam> Debolaz: if you keep watching Jonathan Worthington, he's adding oop stuff to rakudo  :)
<Debolaz> TimToady: I may be reading you very wrong here, which is why I'm looking for examples.
<dalek> r27165 | particle++ | trunk:
<dalek> : [rakudo] "improve" test failure reporting
<dalek> : ~ add new --keep-exit-code option to fudge in the spectest target
<dalek> : ~ this makes passing fudged tests report that they pass, instead of fail
<dalek> : ~ also added note that eventually this option must be ripped out
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27165
<particle> ok, as of r27165, passing fudged test files are reported as passing in rakudo.
<Coke> even if they fail? awesome! <duck>
* Coke has trouble reading particle's sends today, and keeps up the trend.
<particle> :)
<PerlJam> Debolaz: Could you give an example?  Because it keeps sounding to me like you're expecting a Dog to transform into a Cat without either having knowledge of the other.
<Coke> why are you frowning!
<particle> :P
<Debolaz> PerlJam: In the example I used, The class Dog knows how to construct a Dog object from a Cat object.
* particle prefers a more real-world example
<particle> like, say, coercing a Date object from a String
<Debolaz> particle: Or a HTTP::Request object from an url string.
<particle> there ya go.
<Debolaz> However, that makes it more difficult to understand why mmd seems like such a horrible solution to me, so I tried to make the example less tied to one particular situation.
<PerlJam> Debolaz: yet single dispatch is fine?
<Debolaz> PerlJam: ...?
<purl> Yada yada yada hasn't been implemented yet!
<dalek> r27166 | bernhard++ | trunk:
<dalek> : Remove lib/Digest/Perl/MD5.pm.
<dalek> : There is Digest::MD5 in core of Perl 5.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27166
<Debolaz> PerlJam: It's not at all implied what the problem is in that statement...
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<barney> Is there a ~~ op in Perl 5 ?   Encountered in RT#53362
<Tene> 5.10
<barney> Ah, smart match
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<ambs> :)
<Coke> barney: do we need lib/Pod/Simple.pod ?
<Coke> or lib/Pod/Simple/*.pod ?
<Coke> (... or Pod::Simple... yah, yah, I know it's not core in 5.8)
<dalek> r27167 | bernhard++ | trunk:
<dalek> : #53362: [NEW] Add a test for the sysinfo op.
<dalek> : Courtesy of Brad Gilbert
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27167
<barney> It's used in a couple of places, and in Perl 5 core only since Perl 5.9.3
<Coke> right. my initial quesiton was regarding the .pod files we appear to have included when we sucked it in.
<barney> Ah. Let's get rid of it.
<spinclad> (re squaak): huh.  here i was thinking it was a toy impl of squeak.  (which would be cool too)
<cotto_work> that seems to be a common misconception
<cognominal> > sub hi { say "hi" }; hi
<cognominal> ResizablePMCArray: Can't shift from an empty array!
<cognominal> > sub hi { say "hi" }; hi()
<cognominal> invoke() not implemented in class 'Perl6Str'
<cognominal> > sub hi { say( "hi") }; hi()
<cognominal> hi
<purl> hi, cognominal.
<cognominal> comments?
<purl> Butt out.  I'll repeat that sentiment stronger if you haven't figured out the message yet.
<cognominal> dealing with bots is even more hopeless tan dealing with code
<dalek> r27168 | bernhard++ | trunk:
<dalek> : Get rid of unneeded *.pod files in lib/Pod.
<dalek> : coke++ for suggesting this.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27168
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<Coke> thanks, barney.
<ambs> Coke, did you see my email?
<ambs> :)
<Coke> yes. was trying to determine a reply. Only folks I know in .eu are smash and leo
<Coke> both of whom haven't done much recent hacking.
<Coke> I'll go if you fly me out. ^_^
<Infinoid> does .uk count as .eu?
<dalek> r27169 | kjs++ | trunk:
<dalek> : [squaak] add readme file. fix my name in maintainer file. update manifest.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27169
<dalek> r27170 | kjs++ | trunk:
<dalek> : [squaak] add svn:mime-type property to file.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27170
<ambs> Coke, hehehe. Smash will be there, of course
<ambs> Infinoid, doesn't it?
<Coke> ambs: he doesn't know what your original question was.
<ambs> Coke, I know :D
<Coke> *thwap*
<Coke> in any case, your best bet is probably to just ask on list.
<ambs> yes, probably
<purl> Really? Probably? Are you Certain it's not certain? Are you sure it's unsure? I think you need to look harder.
* ambs slaps purl
<purl> o/` Hit me baby, one more time o/`
<Coke> coke is also just a figurehead.
<purl> okay, Coke.
<Infinoid> ambs: if so, I'm pretty sure jonathan counts too, I think he's in .uk :)
<Infinoid> (I could be wrong about that.)
<particle> jonathan is in spain, moving to slovakia
<ambs> spain? nice :D
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<ambs> I can always ask him to get to Portugal before :)
<Coke> jonathan has some commitment problems. =-)
* ambs coughs
<Coke> about his place of residence. :P
<ambs> :D
<dalek> r27171 | kjs++ | trunk:
<dalek> : [squaak] add a note to readme file about squaak not being Squeak.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27171
<Coke> seen merlyn
<purl> merlyn was last seen on #moose 35 days and 23 hours ago, saying: ... http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/library/post/the-year-of-smalltalk.html  [Mar 20 15:09:20 2008]
<Coke> yapc?
<Coke> yapc::na?
<purl> it has been said that yapc::na is June 16-18 at IIT in Chicago (again! bring your blankets!) or
<Coke> yapc::na is also Coke
<purl> okay, Coke.
<particle> going to yapc::na?
<purl> going to yapc::na is sungo
<particle> going to yapc::na is also particle
<purl> okay, particle.
<Coke> going to yapc::na is also Coke
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<purl> okay, Coke.
<Coke> no, yapc::na is June 16-18 at IIT in Chicago  (again! bring your blankets!)
<purl> okay, Coke.
<ambs> yapc::eu?
<purl> somebody said yapc::eu was see YAPC::Europe
<ambs> yapc::Europe?
<purl> yapc::Europe is Copenhagen, Denmark - 13-15AUG08 and http://www.yapceurope2008.org/ye2008/
<ambs> purl, ptpw?
<purl> wish i knew, ambs
<ambs> purl, PtPW is the Portuguese Perl Workshop (6-7 June, 2008)
<purl> OK, ambs.
<cotto_work> going to yapc::na is also cotto
<purl> okay, cotto_work.
<ambs> damn Pittsburg for stealing PPW.
<ambs> going to yapc::europe?
<purl> going to yapc::europe is (: going to YAPC::EU 2007)
<ambs> goint to yapc::eu 2008
<ambs> going to yapc::eu 2008?
<ambs> purl, going to yapc::eu 2008?
<purl> ambs: bugger all, i dunno
<ambs> d'uh
<ambs> purl, going to yapc::eu 2008 is ambs, smash
<purl> OK, ambs.
<Coke> no going to yapc::europe is See: going to yapc::eu 2008
<Coke> no, going to yapc::europe is See: going to yapc::eu 2008
<purl> okay, Coke.
<Coke> whee.
<ambs> Coke, thanks
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<ambs> and, night, folks
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<cotto_work> nopaste?
<purl> nopaste is at http://nopaste.snit.ch/ (ask TonyC for new channels) or http://rafb.net/paste or http://paste.husk.org/ or http://poundperl.pastebin.com/ or http://paste.scsys.co.uk/ or don't bother me while I'm eating
<cotto_work> nopasta?
<cotto_work> purl, nopasta is http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22352536-13762,00.html
<purl> OK, cotto_work.
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<cotto_work> purl, svn st is <reply>svn: warning: '#parrot' is not a working copy
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<purl> OK, cotto_work.
<cotto_work> svn st
<cotto_work> svn st
<tetragon> "Determining whether libc has the backtrace* functions (glibc only).....yes."?  I don't have use glibc.
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<cotto_work> that's what you think
<tetragon> backtrace(3) is in the "BSD Library Functions Manual"
<tetragon> (And was added to OS X in 10.5)
<kid51> ... which explains why on OS X 10.4, I get "no entry" for 'man backtrace'
<tetragon> The manpage documents that it is a recent addition
<tetragon> It's in execinfo.h
<kid51> Part of our problem is that we don't (as far as I know) have anyone who *primarily* develops Parrot on BSD -- not counting Darwin.
<nopaste> "cotto_work" at 131.107.0.106 pasted "cultural sensitivity to non-glibc systems with a backtrace()" (13 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/12821
<kid51> So we solve Darwin problems as they occur on the laptops many/most of us use ... to access Linux servers.
<tetragon> And, as you might expect, Apple's execinfo.h is not the same as glibc's execinfo.h
<tetragon> They appear to be effectively the same signatures, though
<tetragon> glibc sticks in a load of macros, though
<tetragon> (in the declaration lines)
<kid51> cotto_work:  I don't think we can accept that patch unless we understand that step's runstep() method better.  After all, it specifically sets 'glibc_backtrace' in the P::C object.  I can't say that that's 100% correct, but it was clearly the intent of the person who wrote the step.
<cotto_work> I would expect an actual commit to be made by someone more knowledgeable about that than me
<nopaste> "kid51" at 68.237.13.171 pasted "How auto::backtrace first appeared as a separate config step class in Parrot" (6 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/12822
<kid51> ... and that certainly isn't me! ;-)
<cotto_work> I really should get some BSD system set up for testing
<kid51> Is 'backtrace' something on the order of these libraries we've been adding lately, e.g., readline, gdbm, gmp, opengl?   Or is it something more fundamentally tied in with the C compiler?
<tetragon> It's from the base C library
<tetragon> Here's the manpage: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man3/backtrace.3.html
<shorten> tetragon's url is at http://xrl.us/bjt5k
<kid51> cotto_work:  I dunno know about lately, but in the past year we've had good *smoke* testing on FreeBSD and Dragonfly -- but that's not quite the same thing as active developing on the system.
<kid51> tetragon:  Given its position in the sequence of config steps, that's what I suspected.
<kid51> 2 steps after auto::gcc
<tetragon> Looks like there could be slightly different behaviour at compile-time between Linux/glibc/gcc and OS X
<tetragon> The glibc variant makes use of gcc attributes
<tetragon> The attributes used mean that the compiler checks calls for NULL pointers
<tetragon> (and can adjust optimisations based upon the assumption of non-null)
<tetragon> The three functions are otherwise equivalent, going by the OS X manpage and the comments in the header on a Linux box
<Infinoid> it sounds perfectly safe to me to remove the glibcism
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<Infinoid> the only thing I think we have to worry about is some other obscure OS adding a backtrace() with different parameters
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<Infinoid> if execinfo.h doesn't exist, the test will barf
<Infinoid> if execinfo.h exists but doesn't contain backtrace(), it will yield a "implicit declaration" warning and succeed... but might not work correctly later
<Infinoid> is there a portable version of -Werror?
<tetragon> I can't think of one.  The Linux manpage for backtrace(3) I found claims that backtrace is a GNU extension.
<Infinoid> several things have started out that way :)
<Infinoid> but it doesn't mean someone else might have a backtrace() of their own, with different arguments/semantics (one might expect to be passed a pthread_t, for example)
<tetragon> Here's the manpage for the glibc version: http://linux.die.net/man/3/backtrace
<Infinoid> so what I'm worried about is, we try out a new platform, detect backtrace bogusly, crash horribly at runtime for some other reason (pointer alignment perhaps), try to call backtrace, and make the problem even worse
<Infinoid> I'd prefer if it didn't get in the way of future debugging
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<Infinoid> but I suppose that isn't a big deal.  just removing "glibc" from the variable names and Configure.pl output is a step in the right direction
<tetragon> Heh, the test for supported compiler warnings is a few steps after the check for backtrace
<Infinoid> Figures (tm)
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<Infinoid> I don't want to add -Werror to the standard set of compiler warnings, but it would be nice if it could compile this particular test with it
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<dalek> r27172 | coke++ | trunk:
<dalek> : [codingstd] Fix svn:keywords
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27172
<Infinoid> nice of them to say its a GNU extension but not what version it was added in
<Coke> Infinoid: I had already figured that out and one point and think perhaps opened a ticket.
<Coke> Infinoid: http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=50908
<Infinoid> Coke: Nice.  Speaking of beating me to it, did you get anywhere with the ops2c flags hashification thingy?
<Coke> Every time I try to improve upon your version, I screw it up in an incompatible fashion. I think I might have something I can commit, checking....
<Coke> I just have your version.
<Coke> Feel free to check yours in and get your karma.
<Infinoid> ok, I will.  and I'll add a blurb to the accessor method as you suggested
<Coke> (in fact, I just reverted it to force you!)
<Infinoid> heh.  good thing I still have a copy of the diff :)
<Infinoid> nopaste doesn't seem to keep things around for very long
<Coke> I had to go back through nopaste one a time to get back to yours.
<Coke> (this was only the following day, though)
<Infinoid> is there a way to intentionally crash parrot, in order to test whether backtrace() worked?
<Infinoid> I mean, I could tell it to sleep for a second and send it a SIGSEGV, but that isn't very sporting.  (nor portable.)
<tetragon> So no dereferencing a NULL pointer?
<Infinoid> I don't think I'm able to do that from PIR
<Infinoid> but maybe I can do it through an NCI call
<Infinoid> ... call fprintf(undef) or try to call stdout as a function or somesuch
<Coke> is there a CPP way to see if two literal strings are equal?
<Infinoid> C++ or C Preprocessor?
<Coke> latter
<Infinoid> #if (a == b) will probably work
<tetragon> Hrm... the pointer alignment test detects a minimum alignment of one byte on my system, except based upon my (brief) look at the rules and compiler flags, it should probably be four
<Infinoid> will your system crash if you access a non-aligned location?  some processors (like ARM) do.
<Infinoid> the kernel has a whole exception framework to fix those up for userspace processes
<tetragon> I know I got alignment errors when I ran that sub test{}; test(); thing a while back
<tetragon> I'll find out if I correctly remembered the syntax in a couple moments
<Infinoid> ok
<Infinoid> Coke: I lied.  the preprocessor is all sorts of incompetent about quoted strings, it seems
<tetragon> Hrm, I'm getting double-frees from that
<tetragon> The slightly confusing bit is that PPC OS X supports multiple alignment modes
<Infinoid> interesting... does it depend on how the OS and/or bootloader set things up?  or how the RAM is wired?  or what?
<tetragon> Compiler flags and pragmas
* Infinoid blinks
<tetragon> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/DeveloperTools/Conceptual/LowLevelABI/Articles/32bitPowerPC.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40002438
<shorten> tetragon's url is at http://xrl.us/bjt66
<tetragon> I'm on PPC32
<Infinoid> oh... that's just for performance (fitting into cache nicely and minimizing TLB hits and such)
<Infinoid> or does it actually crash when you get this wrong?
<tetragon> I think the flags (or more correctly lack thereof) put me into Power mode, but the single byte would only be correct for packed
<tetragon> Docs suggest that it's performance and that the compiler will pad things out
<Infinoid> yep, you'll find your generated assembly dotted with ".align" tags for that
<Infinoid> and there's a whole subset of linker flags related to this
<tetragon> Although there are special rules for function parameters
<tetragon> Non-vector parameters are four-byte
<tetragon> Vector parameters are 16-byte
* tetragon is so glad that compilers take care of this stuff
<Infinoid> that's to keep the stack working, and scannable by gdb and backtrace()-like functions
<Infinoid> I don't think any of this is ppc-specific... they all have that. :)
<tetragon> As evidenced by the subsequent pages for i386 and amd64
<Infinoid> there are some architectures (ARM as I mentioned before and probably MIPS), which simply aren't able to think about non-aligned access
<Infinoid> in fact, when you branch to a subroutine on ARM, the least significant 2 bits are repurposed as "flags"
<Infinoid> to tell it what mode to execute the subroutine in
<Infinoid> so you couldn't call an unaligned function even if you tried, it would round down to the next dword boundary and start executing there
<Infinoid> (sorry, this counts as "idle conversation" for me.)
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<Infinoid> does t/op/sysinfo.t fail for anyone else, or did I break it?
<tetragon> hehe, the test used by alignptrs.pm still passes if I tell it 0
<tetragon> Or -1
<purl> -1
<Infinoid> nice!
<tetragon> Hrm, well -1 changes the number to -29
<tetragon> I'll have to check on that
% kid51_atdinner is now known as kid51
<Infinoid> ok, I didn't break it.  and it looks like a 64-bit specific error
<Infinoid> #   Failed test 'sysinfo integer size'
<Infinoid> #   at t/op/sysinfo.t line 53.
<Infinoid> #          got: '8'
<Infinoid> #     expected: '4'
<nopaste> "Infinoid" at 75.5.241.119 pasted "backtrace: Its Not Just For Glibc Kiddies Any More" (108 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/12823
<Infinoid> that's a logical extension of cotto++'s patch.  It works fine here
<tetragon> backtrace was detected here with the patch
<Infinoid> I just wish we had a test that called it
<Infinoid> I guess that's stage 2 :)
<Infinoid> kid51: so, the patches we've been tossing around just change the name and description to avoid accusing OSX people of GNU-ness.  Should I just check it in?  I don't think it makes the current situation any worse...
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<kid51> I have no big personal investment in this step.  Other than the 2 steps tests -- which I'm glad to see you adjusted -- I didn't have any thing to do with it.  But let me see what I get on OS X 10.4.
<kid51> Also:  how would this run on win32?
<Infinoid> it should fail to compile, and thus, say "no"
<Infinoid> I presume it already does that
* kid51 svn ups
<Infinoid> I can test that on mingw in a few minutes
<kid51> Infinoid:  Once I do 'make', what are the relevant tests?  ('make test' takes too long on my iBook).
<Infinoid> I don't think there are any.
<Infinoid> [19:15] <@Infinoid> I just wish we had a test that called it
<tetragon> There are some tests that consistently crash parrot on my box
<Infinoid> do they have nifty looking backtraces?
<tetragon> Give me a minute
<tetragon> I need to get it to the point of not being blocked by prove -v
<tetragon> But there is a backtrace
<Infinoid> I'm not really sure under what conditions it does this.  but it looks like "Backtrace - Obtained %zd stack frames (max trace depth is %d).\n"
<nopaste> "tetragon" at 69.196.138.185 pasted "Nifty looking backtrace from the crash of t/imcc/syn/macro.t, test 32" (20 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/12824
<Infinoid> nifty!
<tetragon> This particular test is one that crashes hard enough to trigger the OS X crash reporter
<Infinoid> hmm, kinda nifty.  but I wonder if we need to compile with -g or something, to get symbol names
<tetragon> Want to see the output made using the sample C code in the OS X manpage?
<nopaste> "Infinoid" at 75.5.241.119 pasted "Linux has some symbol names, but is still missing some" (17 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/12825
<tetragon> I get the names without fancy compiler options
<tetragon> The crash reporter stack trace on macro 32 I get has all the function names
<kid51> Infinoid:  change of topic:  http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=53270  Do you know what interface to _add_to_libs() japhb wanted?  I kinda understand his point about the internals, but am unsure what he meant by $args->{default}.
<purl> kid51: that doesn't look right
<kid51> purl  That's why I am asking the question!
<Infinoid> purl, zark off
<purl> OK, kid51.
<purl> Infinoid: i'm not following you...
<Infinoid> purl, that's why kid51?
<purl> that's why kid51 is asking the question!
<kid51> Dare we ask purl who's on first?
<Infinoid> its pronoun handling amuses me
<japhb> Oh boy
<japhb> kid51: IRC client alerted me ... what's up?
<japhb> I fear that I have done a poor job of explaining myself ....
<kid51> Infinoid:  Your patch passed Configure.pl --test on both Linux and Darwin 10.4.  backtrace correctly detected on former and correctly not found on latter.  Am currently running make test on Linux only.
<Infinoid> kid51: I don't think the interface to _add_to_libs was the issue, it was the implementation
<Infinoid> I think he just cleaned it up to make it look nicer
<Infinoid> (and easier to extend in the future)
<japhb> Infinoid: mostly what you just said.  Plus the default thing, as follows:
<kid51> Okay:  I understand that you'd like that darwin KVP so that we could accommodate one more conversion from _handle_mswin32.  And I understand that you'd prefer cascading ternary on the inside.   But I'm unclear as to what you wanted for the interface for _add_to_libs().
<japhb> If several different platforms have the same libs flags, it seems a shame to have to specify them all individually.
<japhb> And most *nix are like this.
<japhb> So I figured -- make the *nix case the 'default',
<japhb> and then ONLY specify flags for OSen that do not want those.
<Infinoid> (we out number the win32's, anyway)
<japhb> So we no longer have to specify win32_gcc if it's just the same as gcc on every platform.
<japhb> Same with darwin, fink, macports, etc.
<japhb> afk for just a sec
<japhb> bak
<japhb> My point was basically:  why have to list the flags for every platform, when most are the same.
<japhb> er, s/\./?/
<kid51> And how/where would the default be coded?
<japhb> That's the thing -- in the args to the function, one key be called 'default';
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<japhb> depending on the platform detected, if there is no explicit arg for that platform, it falls back to using the 'default'.
<kid51> So, more or less, 'default' substitutes for what I referred to as 'non_win32'?
<japhb> That's why the my $lib line
<japhb> kid51: yes, exactly.
<japhb> Except it gets renamed, because it now really is a default.
<Infinoid> and now we have the ability to add special cases for things other than win32, in the future, without looking really bizarre
<kid51> Ok.  Since it's getting late here, I won't try to do this now.  Will try over the weekend.
<Infinoid> japhb: if you're really motivated, you could come up with a full patch to demonstrate this :)
<japhb> So for example, if only VC++ is different, you would only specify { win32_other => 'foo.lib', default => '-lfoo' }.  Then darwin, win32_gcc, non_win32, etc. all would use 'default'
<japhb> Infinoid: exactly
<Infinoid> japhb++
<japhb> Infinoid: RL has been getting in the way.  If I get lucky, sure.  If not, hopefully kid51 understands what I mean now.  :-)
<Infinoid> no problem, thanks for the help
<tetragon> Would there be some provision for temporary flags in the sense of only added on for some platforms during certain tests, with the temporary flags being removed in both cases of failing and passing the checks?
<dalek> r27173 | infinoid++ | trunk:
<dalek> : [Ops2c]
<dalek> : * Make flags() into a hash reference, so we don't have to add a 
<dalek> :   little regex parser every time we want to check a flag.
<dalek> : * Coke++ for the idea and the help.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27173
<Infinoid> I've been too busy in RL to do anything at all this week, until now :)
<Infinoid> tetragon: you mean like passing -Werror for the backtrace() test?
<Infinoid> I don't know, but I want it.
<tetragon> Infinoid: The more specific case for me is '-undefined error' to darwin in the readline test
<tetragon> I need that tacked onto the end of the parameter list so that editline doesn't trick Configure.pl into thinking the system has readline
<Infinoid> what's it do?
<tetragon> -undefined error?
<Infinoid> is it anything like the -Werror=declaration-after-statement mentioned in RT #50908?
<Infinoid> yeah, that
<purl> Sure, that.
<japhb> tetragon: I don't think there currently is such a facility (unless auto::readline implements it as a one-off), but that could be added later.  Or auto::readline could subclass the standard methods.
<Infinoid> it sounds like a feature we both want
<tetragon> '-undefined dynamic_lookup' is passed in the standard g++ flag list on OS X.  This tells the linker that undefined symbols are to be looked up dynamically
<tetragon> I hacked together a one-off in #52212
<Infinoid> oh.  in other words, you never get undefined symbol errors from your linker?
<tetragon> That's right
<Infinoid> eew!
<tetragon> I get the errors at runtime
<japhb> sheesh
<tetragon> And by standard list, I mean the parrot standard list
<kid51> All tests passed on Linux, so, at the very least, the Infinoid backtrace patch Did No Harm there.
* kid51 must sleep
<purl> $kid51->sleep(8 * 3600);
<Infinoid> sleep well kid51 
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<tetragon> One of the symbols in the readline test is declared in the editline headers but not implimented in the library
<Infinoid> and its referenced in the test file, which compiles, but doesn't run?
<tetragon> Yep
<tetragon> For the past couple of weeks I've been using my patch
<Infinoid> welp, since kid51 crosses his heart and swears that our backtrace patch is perfect and mindblowingly awesome, I'll check it in
<tetragon> The OS X default behaviour is that of '-undefined error'
<Infinoid> tetragon: hmm.  is there a good reason why parrot shouldn't leave that behavior alone?
<tetragon> The options are 'error', 'warning', 'suppress', and 'dynamic_lookup'
<tetragon> I'm not sure why it's touching that flag in the first place
<tetragon> I only see it in compiler lines that use 'c++', not 'cc'
<tetragon> (although I could have missed a case)
<Infinoid> I wonder if everything would work fine if we just ripped it out 
<tetragon> I can always realclean and find where it comes from
<Infinoid> maybe it was in there because it was hard to figure out what libs to link against, or their paths or something
<dalek> r27174 | infinoid++ | trunk:
<dalek> : [config] Backtrace: Its Not Just For Glibc Kiddies Any More.
<dalek> : * backtrace() and backtrace_symbol() exist on OSX 10.5 too, with
<dalek> :   compatible prototypes and behavior.
<dalek> : * Change the Configure.pl description to avoid accusing OSX users 
<tetragon> (config/init/hints/darwin.pm)
<dalek> :   of glibc-ness.
<dalek> : * Rename the config option from "glibc_backtrace" to "backtrace".
<dalek> : * Rename the header define from "PARROT_HAS_GLIBC_BACKTRACE" to 
<dalek> :   "PARROT_HAS_BACKTRACE".
<dalek> : * cotto++ for the original idea, kid51++ and tetragon++ for testing.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27174
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<tetragon> Well, time to see if it builds without '-undefined dynamic_lookup'
<Infinoid> ok :)
<Infinoid> I take it that's also passed during configure tests.  I'd be curious how many detection results change
<tetragon> OS X linking is scary enough without that flag
<Infinoid> hopefully your readline test, at least
<tetragon> The readline test results don't change
<tetragon> Two reasons: 1) I pass in the location to readline (not in default search paths) 2) The patch in #52212
<Infinoid> guess you've already killed that bug sufficiently :)
<Infinoid> hmm, brb.
<Infinoid> guacamole &
<tetragon> Yay, the build failed without '-undefined dynamic_lookup'
<tetragon> The failure occurred while building libglutcb.bundle
<Infinoid> that's not at all surprising.  Didn't we omit the -lGL (and so forth) for glut on darwin?
<tetragon> There still is '-framework OpenGL -framework GLUT', but I don't think that's it
<tetragon> The symols it can't find are _Parrot_runops_fromc_args_event, _PMCNULL, and _do_panic
<Infinoid> ooh, _PMCNULL sounds familiar from months and months ago
<tetragon> I'm going to try without -j2
<Infinoid> ok, but I doubt it will help
<tetragon> It will result in a more legible set build log
<Infinoid> _PMCNULL doesn't exist at all, or there were multiple instances of it?  (I'm trying to figure out if this is how we fixed a bug last August.)
<tetragon> Actually, I haven't reached where the OpenGL code builds, but it looks like omitting -j2 may help with at least one symbol
<Infinoid> hmm.  if so, that's probably a -j bug
<tetragon> But I'll have to wait and see
<tetragon> None of the pmc objects had been built by the time the build of libglutcb was attempted
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<japhb> tetragon: I wonder if the '-undefined dynamic_lookup' is why you found no difference before when you tried getting rid of the -framework flags ...?
<tetragon> japhb: Doubtful.  I did the test code at the command line without any flags and it worked.
<japhb> ah, OK, nm
<tetragon> This time it failed during the build of libparrot
<tetragon> The undefined symbols are _environ and _offset_fixup
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<Infinoid> what was the error message from libglutcb?
<Infinoid> it shouldn't matter whether the PMCs were built, but it might need a dependency on one of their header files.
<nopaste> "tetragon" at 69.196.138.185 pasted "make -j2 opengl ld error" (41 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/12826
<Infinoid> that library will very likely need -lparrot
<japhb> hmmm, I wonder if libglutcb.so needs to depend on libparrot.so ...
<tetragon> _Parrot_runops_fromc_args_event wasn't defined in any of the objects built at that point
<japhb> Infinoid: both with the -lparrot, and with a make dependency, so -j2 works
<Infinoid> yeah
<Infinoid> this is definitely a difference in behavior.  linux ld doesn't care about undefined symbols in shared objects, because there will always be some of those.  OSX (without the ultimate-laziness cheat code) seems to be a bit stricter about resolving these at dynlib link time
<tetragon> There's also the warning option
<japhb> Why bother to warn if we won't do anything about it?
<tetragon> _Parrot_runops_fromc_args_event is from inter_run.o
<japhb> I'd prefer to do what it takes to make OS X happy, but barring that, no reason to have a warning appear that we are guaranteed not to do anything about.
<Infinoid> now that's optimism
<Infinoid> anyway, it sounds like -undefined dynamic_lookup was a workaround for OS X's strict default shlib linking
<Infinoid> I won't pursue the matter, because I don't want to break platforms I don't actually ever run.
<Infinoid> tetragon++ # thanks for the testing
<tetragon> If parrot is built before the glut code, I think I can get away with using -bundle_loader on it
<japhb> What does that do?
<tetragon> libglutcb.bundle is built as a bundle, and -bundle_loader <executable> tells ld to also check the executable's symbols
<Infinoid> and presumably, those of the shlibs referenced by the executable
<tetragon> Here's the manpage I'm referring to: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man1/ld.1.html
<shorten> tetragon's url is at http://xrl.us/bjt88
<Infinoid> interesting.  so -bundle_loader is a way of telling OS X, "look, I'm only going to be loading this library from this program over here, so don't complain about any symbols that program defines"?
<Infinoid> out of curiosity, does OS X use ELF executables?
<Infinoid> they have changed a surprising amount of stuff about how linking works.
<tetragon> Not ELF
* tetragon tries to dig out one of the quad-architecture binaries
<tetragon> But it's Mach-O
<Infinoid> ok, thanks
<tetragon> A document about Mach-O: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/DeveloperTools/Conceptual/MachOTopics/introduction.html
<shorten> tetragon's url is at http://xrl.us/bjt9a
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<pmichaud> yapc::na talks look really good this year
<Infinoid> too bad it's 2/3 of the way across the country for me :(
<Infinoid> tetragon: thanks for that link, I understand bundles and frameworks a lot better now
<Infinoid> and I think you're right, -bundle_loader is exactly what OS X would need
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<pmichaud> that's odd, yapc::na is 2/3rd of the way across the country for me, also :-)
<tetragon> Infinoid: OS X can be such fun when combining Unix and OS X conventions and build techniques
<Infinoid> pmichaud: are you in california?
<pmichaud> texas :-)
<pmichaud> my "across the country" is along a different axis than yours
<Infinoid> ah.  well, you have to travel 2/3 of the way across the country just to get across the state line
<pmichaud> that too
<Infinoid> :)
<pmichaud> when I got onto I-20 tonight (on my way to san angelo), it had mile marker 400
<pmichaud> 400 miles to the end of I-20
<pmichaud> i.e., where I-20 meets I-10
<pmichaud> and even at *that* one would still have another 120 miles to go to get out of texas.  yeesh
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<Infinoid> I know the feeling.  its ridiculous that I can drive 600 miles (from here to San Diego) and still be in the same state
<pmichaud> largest mile marker I've ever seen is mile marker 880 on I-10 near Orange, Texas
<pmichaud> or, when driving from corpus christi (where I used to live) to Los Angeles, El Paso is half way.
<Infinoid> heh
<Infinoid> I can't comprehend of that distance.  farthest east I've ever been is Phoenix
<pmichaud> phoenix?!?  east?!?  ;-)
<tetragon> I'm not sure I've been that far west
<pmichaud> I think the only states I haven't been in are Rhode Island, Connecticut, North Dakota, Alaska, and Hawaii
<pmichaud> and I'm hoping to knock Hawaii out this summer :-)
<Infinoid> Gentoo is talking about dropping parrot from their tree, since the package is outdated and in need of a maintainer
<Infinoid> I'm not so sure that's a bad thing, considering the general opinion of "oh, we don't really support make install anyway"
<Infinoid> their current package is 0.4.6, which is probably worse than nothing at all
<japhb> NOD
<pmichaud> time for me to get some sleep before tomorrow's symposium
<pmichaud> g'nite all
<Infinoid> sleep well pmichaud 
<japhb> g'nite!
<Infinoid> that said, I hope we can get the installation stuff sorted out soon, so we can install a nifty looking "perl6" executable that actually works
<japhb> agreed
<Infinoid> I'd work on it, but I've already got the pdd13pbc stuff in my queue :)
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<japhb> Long ago I had a job writing InstallShield scripts for Windows boxen.  I went insane, only cured by swearing off writing installers.  ;-)
<Infinoid> wow, that's a good excuse!
<Infinoid> mine is pretty threadbare, considering I haven't done anything on pdd13pbc in a week.
<japhb> Would you prefer to shave yaks or specs?
<Infinoid> I'm a low level coding sort of guy, so implementing .pbc handling PMC classes is right up my alley.
<japhb> well there you go
<japhb> :-)
<Infinoid> high level stuff tends to trigger "yak overflow" exceptions in my brain more often
<japhb> Followed by yakking if exposure persists?
<Infinoid> it tends to lead me into things like IMCC, so generally, yes
<Infinoid> *** IMCC defense mechanism engaged, yak exception thrown.
<japhb> heh
<tetragon> Urgh, I found one of the symbols the linker was complaining about lacking when linking libparrot.dylib together
<tetragon> It's in one of the objects being linked
<japhb> ?!
<tetragon> I found an _offset_fixup in exec_dep.o
<tetragon> I'm even looking at otool's disassembly of it
<tetragon> I don't think it's being exported
<tetragon> Unfortunately, knowing how to manipulate export lists in AIX does not automatically mean I know how to do it in OS X
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<Infinoid> is _offset_fixup declared with PARROT_API?
<Infinoid> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/DeveloperTools/Conceptual/DynamicLibraries/Articles/DynamicLibraryDesignGuidelines.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40002013-SW18
<shorten> Infinoid's url is at http://xrl.us/bjua4
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<Infinoid> msg tetragon http://developer.apple.com/documentation/DeveloperTools/Conceptual/DynamicLibraries/Articles/DynamicLibraryDesignGuidelines.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40002013-SW18
<purl> Message for tetragon stored.
<shorten> Infinoid's url is at http://xrl.us/bjua4
<Infinoid> msg tetragon Parrot runs gcc with -fvisibility-hidden, thus, symbols you want to export must be declared with PARROT_API.  ...which is defined to __attribute__ ((visibility("default"))
<purl> Message for tetragon stored.
<Infinoid> goodnight all
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<dalek> r27175 | coke++ | trunk:
<dalek> : remove TODO comment; the opcode it's in is slated for deletion
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27175
<dalek> r27176 | coke++ | trunk:
<dalek> : Remove old TODO that had nothing TODO.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27176
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<dalek> r27177 | coke++ | trunk:
<dalek> : [languages/PIR]
<dalek> : remove some commented out code
<dalek> : RT #41633 - replace .IMPORT with something more standard.
<dalek> : (This doesn't make the file work, though, just removes this particular
<dalek> : piece of cruft.)
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27177
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