% iblechbot has joined #parrot % slightlyoff has joined #parrot % contingencyplan has left contingencyplan!~contingen@cpe-76-186-27-146.tx.res.rr.com % contingencyplan has joined #parrot % ruoso has joined #parrot % rotty` has joined #parrot % wknight8111 has joined #parrot % iblechbot has left iblechbot!~iblechbot@ppp-62-216-201-2.dynamic.mnet-online.de % wknight8111 has left wknight8111!~nobody@c-71-230-33-251.hsd1.pa.comcast.net % Zaba has joined #parrot % skids has left skids!~bri@c-71-233-204-100.hsd1.ma.comcast.net allison@perl.org | Concurrency Tasks: link: http://www.perlfoundation.org/parrot/index.cgi?concurrency_tasks % itz has joined #parrot % iblechbot has joined #parrot allison@perl.org | Concurrency Tasks: link: http://www.perlfoundation.org/parrot/index.cgi?concurrency_tasks is there anything like a simple tasks for parrot/perl6 n00bs wikipage? parrot has the cage tasks. moment. % tetragon has left tetragon!~seneca@gw-312-705.somanetworks.com itz: http://www.perlfoundation.org/parrot/index.cgi?parrot#contributing_to_parrothttp://www.perlfoundation.org/parrot/index.cgi?parrot#contributing_to_parrot er. http://www.perlfoundation.org/parrot/index.cgi?parrot#contributing_to_parrot allison@perl.org | Concurrency Tasks: link: http://www.perlfoundation.org/parrot/index.cgi?concurrency_tasks I can't see the link of a list of cage tasks, will recreate it... cage? it has been said that cage is parrot cage? many perl.org sites not coming back. So, start at the wiki page and we can go from there. =-) % itz has left itz!~itz@62.3.198.45 % itz has joined #parrot % allison has joined #parrot % Juerd has joined #parrot % mire has left mire!~Frodo@188-175-222-85.adsl.verat.net % allison has left allison!~chatzilla@dsl-241-48-93.telkomadsl.co.za % davidfetter has left davidfetter!~davidfett@start.fetter.org % paco has joined #parrot % Zaba_ has joined #parrot % Zaba has left Zaba!~zaba@ip102.148.adsl.wplus.ru this is the only perl.org service I have up at the moment. % mire has joined #parrot seen ask? ask was last seen on #perl 14 days and 20 hours ago, saying: hex: :-) [Apr 13 11:51:32 2008] seen robrt? robrt was last seen on #p5p 11 days and 12 hours ago, saying: xdg: Exactly. Thats what someone was complaining about [Apr 16 19:53:27 2008] .win 8 Coke: I don't think that putting hackathon work into branches "sends the right message" Could you be more specific? if I'm a hackathon participant, and I do anything of note, I'd like to see my work accepted into the trunk quickly % Zaba_ is now known as Zaba I don't want to see it shunted into a branch because of an upcoming release (that could conceivably be moved to avoid conflicting with the hackathon) i've been thinking about changing the release process so we create branches/QA, test it for a few days, and release from there I'm looking at it from an "instant" versus "delayed" gratification perspective then trunk becomes current development *only* and any changes made to branches/QA are rolled into trunk after release particle: why after release? I'd rather roll them directly into trunk as I locate them sure, that's fine too in that case I don't need the branch :-) i mean META.yml, etc % desertmax has joined #parrot bugfixes found during testing can be rolled directly into trunk I guess I don't see the advantage of the branch release prep activities shouldn't affect trunk, as trunk is never a release candidate if the release process took a couple of days, I could see it. But that's not generally the case. % uniejo has left uniejo!~uniejo@langebro.adapt.dk or, put another way, I'm not sure what existing problem you're trying to improve i believe as we approch 1.0, the release process will lengthen the existing problem is this: % kj has joined #parrot i'm in hawaii, and only have access to a win32 laptop i want a quality release i can't test it well enough to ensure quality, but i release anyway some days later, i get failure reports from cpan testers. i don't like that release cycle. are the failure reports likely to be ones that would be caught by a "release candidate" phase? if we have a branch for release candidates, we can even submit developer releases to CPAN for platform testing hmmm, that might work having the branch is useful if we do indeed get multiple testers for the candidate yes we can have smokers that look for changes to the branch ...and prioritize those requests over trunk smokes (RC phase) arguably, every release we are doing pre-1.0 doesn't even get as far as RC in terms of stability. pmichaud: I have gotten no feedback from committers to indicate that branches are considered second-class. coke: yes, that can be argued. but i argue that the only way to increase velocity is to ensure high stability have you? or are you trying to address a potential problem? Coke: the people at hackathons aren't committers (often aren't) sorry, "contributers" a few small scripts under tools/ could help us manage our branches better make it easier for contributors unfamiliar with svn to deal with them, etc coke: I'm looking primarily at new contributors, not existing ones but do you *know* this is an issue from previous anecdotal evidence on parrot? or are you trying to avoid a problem that you think *might* exist? that's what I'm trying to get a handle on here. And i think we can address that level of expectation socially. avoid a problem I think *might* exist, coupled with knowing that past hackathons haven't netted as many new long-term contributors as we might like but we don't have feedback from those that didn't come back that using a branch was the issue, right? we weren't using branches then (also, we've never had a hackathon that coincided with a release date) i.e, the reason we may not have observed this is because hackathons never juxtapositioned with releases as this one will chicago hackathon in november 2006 was within a week of a release date I would rather address this by being more socially interactive with our new contributors. many patches were submitted to rt and applied after the release well, I don't want to argue this too strongly, because it's really not that important to me. if I were a new participant, I'd feel really good about having my work immediately go into the trunk I'd feel less good if it went into a branch but didn't really have to I'd feel unappreciated if it went into a branch and then got forgotten (much like a warnocked patch) % Andy has joined #parrot no one said we would be putting *everything* into a branch. I was responding specifically to your concern about things that would impact the release. I'm just asking why release dates are sacrosanct in this instance. but rather than push it further, I'll just drop it. it's really not that important. % gryphon has joined #parrot (drop it) ok. pmichaud: is running Test.pm still on the priority list for rakudo? particle: *which* Test.pm ? pugs something that gets us todo/skip I thought that fudge handled that for us it helps i'm just thinking about old assumptions for milestones I'm not terribly impressed with pugs' Test.pm design -- it seemed like a lot of stuff was thrown in I'd rather come up with a cleaner Test.pm agreed wonderful. i agree. I'll write up rakudo milestones shortly -- have one or two other morning tasks to take care of first Will do my first full Rakudo day on Thu or Fri. jonathan++ * Coke continues to wait for his parrotcode.org commit to work. I'll be out of town Fri and Sat jonathan++ (it's taking a LONG time to time out.) ok, better for you if I make it Thursday? if you can (and you think you'll want my input on things), then yes. Well, your input is good to have. :-) Will look at that inheritance bug someone posted on list. t\02-test-pm\1-basic.........< postcircumfix colonpairs not yet implemented at line 41, near ", :desc('2" Oh, I can do that too, if you like. ;-) jonathan, what are your chance to come to fpw at the moment? what's wrong with :desc('foo') ?? :desc('foo') should work... Hmm yeah. hmm. :desc I know isn't done ah. :desc should be really easy then the error message is bad. cognominal: Erm, I really need to work out how much it's going to cost me. pmichaud: Agree, easy, just undone. cognominal: The location is a tad unusual = more costly to get to. You need to fly to Toulouse afk for a bit and you can ride with BooK in a car, see the wiki Is it's airport big? I'd hate tou-louse myself there... *groan* % rotty` has left rotty`!~user@81.223.119.66 cognominal: What dates should I be flying on? The Nordic workshop want me too. fpw Friday 30 May and Saturday jonathan is the (unofficial) european embodiment of rakudo :) cognominal: OK, so if I fly into Toulouse on the Thursday and leave from there on the Sunday, will that match up with the lifts? http://conferences.mongueurs.net/fpw2008/wiki?node=CoVoiturage # BooK is proposing a carpool from Toulouse de Albi if you arrive at the airport Thursday before 6pm this year is on a tight budget so I can't ask the organizer to pay part of your trip :( organizers organizers are sincere enough. indeed Jonathan: and the organizer are quite short on talks, so you probably do as many as you can/will :) cognominal: I'd very much like to be at both this and the Nordic one, I will try to make it happen. % sjansen has joined #parrot Sorry for not having an answer yet - my energies have been eaten up by finding a place to live from next month. :) you are welcome any time... * Coke would donate 5 bucks if you had a paypal link up somewhere. I imagine there are more people who would do the same. apply for a microgrant $500 will buy you a hamburger in london, i hear. * Coke wonders if the microgrants are going through the GC. jonathan? * Coke smacks purl. Oh baby, you do it so *good*! jonathan, what's your email address? well, they have better than burgers in Toulouse y'know, it's funny hearing people saying about the pound being strong agains the dollar. :-) % iblechbot has left iblechbot!~iblechbot@173.17-dial.augustakom.net I instead am having trouble with the weakness of the pound...aginst the euro. Coke: jnthn@jnthn.net seems search.cpan.org is down particle: Microgrant could work. no, microgrants are outside TPF GC I know someone has got a travel grant before. we have people like the Kerviel trader who works hard to lower euro currency :) there are 5 open microgrants for the taking, and yes, they can sponsor travel Given I've just had one grant given to me, I feel kinda odd about going chasing another one. "All your grants are belong to me." It would mean I could comfortably go to both events though. * Coke goes for 5 EU instead. * Coke urks at the exchange rate. jonathan : what we can do is to auction you talks :) but you will have to give one of your colorful t-shirts as a bonus :) jonathan: Do you believe that getting an additional grant will take that grant away from someone who is just as likely as you to do something productive? :) PerlJam: There's plenty of productive people in the Perl community besides me. :) jonathan: sure, but how many of them are applying for a grant? PerlJam: Given that there's five of them left now... Seems not many. jonathan : can you auction one of your t-shirts? Coke++ # thanks! :-O cognominal: Erm, maybe... Most of my t-shirts are *from* Perl conferences. ;-) As my mum frequently points out to me. "ANOTHER Perl t-shirt?!" % kj has left kj!~IceChat7@193.1.100.110 jonathan: Make your own via cafepress.com (put rakudo features on them or your picture or something) no, we want one of his very colorful tshirts :) hehe cognominal: Will see what I can do. Would people *really* want one of my t-shirts? ;-) well, that's a pretext... How do people report Perl Foundation funding to the government? As a grant like an academic grant or as self employment income? tewk: I've been doing it as the second of those. i've been doing the latter, as well however, it's a good question. And highly dependent upon the country you're in too, I guess. jonathan, I forgot your email address cognominal: jnthn@jnthn.net cognominal: Flying to Toulouse looks a lot more expensive, than taking a morning flight to Paris and getting the train down to Toulouse. well but then we have to take a train to albi, that's seven hours of train. From Toulous to Albi? *Toulouse no, from paris Sure, it is. I probably will take the train too from paris Aha, maybe I can join you for the train journey? jonathan is jnthn@jnthn.net sure and one hour subway from Roissy to Gare Monparnasse to take the train. What sort of time were you thinking of setting off on the Thursday? I can get a flight that arrives in Paris (ORY) at 08:50 maybe if we are two, and that the pooling car is not full we can manadge them to meet us at the Toulouse railway station OK, that sounds like a plan too. This is the Toulouse-Albi which is not fun. And you would get train back on the Sunday after the conference? From Paris to Toulouse it is TGV, a fast train I must see with BooK on #perlfr if he agrees your plane will land at Roissy or Orly? % iblechbot has joined #parrot cognominal: Orly YARLY ok I think we will be early at Toulouse so the best will probably to get a cab to Toulouse Blagnac airport (or some public transportation) to meet BooK. OK. * particle has a three line patch for postcircumfix:<> colonpairs particle++ % davidfetter has joined #parrot * particle wonders what it would take to get the :P5 regex modifier working particle: I think just specifying the :language of the regex block differently. erm, and parsing the adverbs to the regex. ;-) right OK, I'll put a microgrant application in for travel to the FPW and NPW. anybody have word on YAPC::NA? that's a cryptic question well, like are all the talks accepted that will be? http://yapcchicago.org r27217 | particle++ | trunk: : [rakudo] implement postcircumfix:<> for colonpairs diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27217 http://conferences.mongueurs.net/yn2008/schedule well, that answers my question * davidfetter a little disappointed not to have gotten any word on this from them :P cognominal: you have a patch pending for rakudo hash composers, correct? yes I mean a function. ok, i'd like to be able to pass isa_ok({ 'one' => 1 }, 'Hash'); I have not worked out, the grammar.pg that calls the hash() function % irc.eggebuh.com has changed the topic of to: Piper % irc.eggebuh.com has changed the topic of to: Piper Piper, go f... * ambs watches his tongue. ambs: yeah, I bet Piper logged that. :-P :D if you want to say something bad about Piper, be sure to do it when it's not looking (and make sure Tweety isn't watching either) I have it more when it opens a new tab just to warn me :) You can ignore those, neh? ignore piper? I *hate* * ambs checks the documentation % grim_fandango has left grim_fandango!~matt@bas2-kingston08-1167932018.dsl.bell.ca % grim_fandango has joined #parrot % cotto_work has left cotto_work!~cotto@tide536.microsoft.com % cotto_work has joined #parrot % jalbo has joined #parrot Hello. hi! r27218 | pmichaud++ | trunk: : [rakudo]: : * Change ROADMAP to provide a list of intended milestones. diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27218 ...ok, that was fast, I have the grant already. FPW and NPW, here I come. :_) jonathan, PPW, no? jonathan, or PtPW, if you preffer... PPW? PPW is the Pittsburgh Perl Workshop http://pghpw.org or perl paddy wagon SMOP? it has been said that SMOP is a Simple Meta Object Programming or Simple Matter of Programming at http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?smop I'm planning to attend PPW Oh, argh, I'm meant to be meeting someone five minutes away, two minutes ago...gotta run. PTPW PTPW? PTPW is probably the Portuguese Perl Workshop (6-7 June, 2008) that one :) r27219 | pmichaud++ | trunk: : [rakudo]: : * Update to ROADMAP milestones. diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27219 % ruoso has left ruoso!~ruoso@195.23.92.2 % Ivatar has joined #parrot % grim_fandango has left grim_fandango!~matt@bas2-kingston08-1167932018.dsl.bell.ca % AndyA has left AndyA!~andy@82.152.157.85 % Ademan has left Ademan!~dan@h-67-101-42-224.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net Zaba: i'm sorry, i've been way to distracted to give your code a look. i'll try to get to it when i can zaba: what's the code/issue? I might be able to take a look. Someone can try this patch buliding with c++? http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=53352 ack, i even messed that up it's rillian with the code issues % jrockway has left jrockway!~jrockway@dsl092-134-178.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net pmichaud: you should see the issues in backscroll I scanned but they didn't pop out % AndyA has joined #parrot pmichaud: still stuck debugging tutorial 3. http://pastebin.ca/1000571 and http://pastebin.ca/1000570 rillian: okay, just a sec (finishing use.perl post) if I compile 'x = 1' I get bind(var('x'), undef) in the parse tree "particle" at 24.19.3.148 pasted "earlier posts from rillian" (18 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/12844 and 'x = "one"' turns into bind(var('x'), val('Hash[0xaddr]')) I've not been able to figure out what I'm doing wrong % grim_fandango has joined #parrot * Coke ponders moving all the Tcl tickets out of parrot's bug queue. * Coke thinks this would be for the best. Coke: perhaps launchpad? % grim_fandango has left grim_fandango!~matt@bas2-kingston08-1167932018.dsl.bell.ca rt is so damn slow :( ambs: use the command line tool. Much faster. pmichaud: i was thinking googlecode. Coke, is there any command line tool for RT? (bug tracker, eventually svn repo for when we get booted out of perl.org...) rt command line? rtcli? rtcli is, like, RT CLI rt cli? i guess rt cli is http://www.perlfoundation.org/parrot/index.cgi?how_to_use_rt_from_the_command_line rillian: can you post the output of --target=past ? rt command line is RT CLI % mj41 has joined #parrot coke: i have a shiny empty repo created for parrot hlls * ambs googles currently populated with none coke++ if you'd like to start using it for tickets, i think we can make that happen depends on where it is. googlecode rumour has it googlecode is google's sourceforge replacement which project? which project is this? squawk.googlecode.org wget: unable to resolve host address `squawk.googlecode.org' s/org/com/ purl, forget which project ambs: I forgot which project rillian: on line 63 of actions.pm, you have # make $/{$key}; it probably needs to be make $($/{$key}); pmichaud: http://pastebin.ca/10000697 otherwise it's putting the parse node into the tree instead of the PAST node er http://pastebin.ca/1000697 coke: hopefully, we can implement our own columns, like HLL or something particle: that's exactly the kind of wonkery I'm trying to avoid. =-) * pmichaud files a ticket to generate a more useful error for rillian's case pmichaud: I did try that in my punctuation-fiddling phrase. "Method 'get_scalar' not found of invocant of class 'Undef'" coke: wcoleda@gm...? yes you're now a project owner I'll see if mdiep has a strong preference on whether or not to share. rillian: okay, then that means that something is returning 'Undef' for expression pmichaud: that does make the string literal work though, so you're on the right track then it's a problem with integer_constant how to I print the class of a variable? could try $var.WHAT but I'm not sure that works yet. r27220 | pmichaud++ | trunk: : [rakudo]: : * Another ROADMAP update (modules and versions) diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=27220 c:\usr\local\parrot\clean\languages\perl6>..\..\parrot perl6.pbc "say 1.WHAT" Error: file cannot be read: say 1.WHAT particle: need a -e that's a *very* misleading error er, right. Int particle: yes, but this isn't rakudo rillian is working on yes, i know. I don't know if .WHAT is supported by Protoobject or NQP yet it's not. I will undoubtedly add it. Sooner if someone files a ticket. :-) rillian: you're going to hate me for this, but.... it's another feature to backport from rakudo in grammar.pg, line 50 | {*}#= integer_constant has an extra space at the end of the line so the key is coming in as "integer_constant " and not "integer_constant" ooh! Protoobject.pir *does* support .WHAT oh. Then .WHAT should work on PAST::* nodes i'm so far behind in parrot these days :( yes, indeed. pmichaud: no, I am *very* grateful you noticed that. because I never would have. time to make my editor ugly on such things, I guess I guess PGE should strip trailing blanks when figuring out #= keys rillian: do you use vim? nano * particle has yet to find someone that uses kate .oO(...someone uses an iPod for parrot development? wow!) "smart whitespace matching, except in magic comment strings!" pmichaud: :) * particle has a command in vim to trim trailing whitespace " remove trailing whitespace map ,ts :%s/\s\+$// imap ,ts :%s/\s\+$//a yay, now it works! thanks much, all of you. thanks for being patient with us :-) % mj41 has left mj41!chatzilla@pc-jurosz.ro.vutbr.cz ok, how do i set up ccache? * particle[ventus] reads the manpage do you want it to just run for parrot, or for everything? ./configure --cc='ccache gcc' perl Configure.pl (note: ccache is default on feather) coke: iunno, what do other folks do? "pmichaud" at 76.183.97.54 pasted "my rebuild script (w/ccache)" (9 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/12846 * rillian would find distcc more useful if it were possible to sanely cross-install cross-compilers. pmichaud: not make -j? % mj41 has joined #parrot % Theory has left Theory!~Theory@71-220-216-36.eugn.qwest.net I haven't seen that make -j makes things significantly faster for me and I don't want to have to worry about whether the current parrot is -j capable or not I have other bugs to chase. :-) er, just so I understand, having extra whitespace at the end of the key didn't stop my integer_constant method from being called, because *that* name matched the rule name, but when my expression method called make $($/{$key}), it did so with a $key that didn't exist, so we got an undef instead of the Past::Val object the integer_constant method had set. Is that right? rillian: exactly right. ta and Undef doesn't understand get_scalar yet in general, don't fear the -j anymore. =-) (but yes, avoiding borkage in parrot is good when you're working on a language.) if only I'd debug-printed $key with quotes around it like I did the actual constant particle[ventus]: (ccache) on feather, I just use gcc which is symlinked to ccache. on my mac, for historical reasons, I invoke ccache directly and pass the compiler as an arg. feather's setup is much easier. * Infinoid just adds /usr/lib/ccache/bin/ to his PATH in his /etc/profile I wanted a shared ccache initially But that's problematic with file access permissions. Never could get that to work well. hmm. could probably merge everything into the same user using distcc, and then ccache that... but is it worth the overhead? well, i'm running on my laptop, and don't expect to be building much other than parrot % rdice has left rdice!~richard_d@CPE0014bfafbbd5-CM0011e6ecf48a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com so, i'll likely use the link approach particle[ventus]: do you have a /usr/lib/ccache/bin/ full of symlinks? /usr/lib/ccache is full of links you should be able to just add that to the front side of your PATH mine configuration [ambs@rachmaninoff SEPLN2008]$ ls -l /opt/ccache/ total 32 lrwxr-xr-x 1 root admin 19 6 Abr 20:32 c++ -> ../local/bin/ccache lrwxr-xr-x 1 root admin 19 6 Abr 20:32 cc -> ../local/bin/ccache lrwxr-xr-x 1 root admin 19 6 Abr 20:32 g++ -> ../local/bin/ccache