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<dalek> r29506 | bernhard++ | trunk:
<dalek> : [build] remove directory OpLib with $(RM_RF) instead of $(RM_F)
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29506
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<dalek> r29507 | bernhard++ | trunk:
<dalek> : [test] Adapt test plan, as a test was removed.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29507
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<dalek> r29508 | julianalbo++ | trunk:
<dalek> : Fixed parrot_debugger test
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29508
<dalek> r29509 | julianalbo++ | trunk:
<dalek> : Fix Revision.pm for non sh shells
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29509
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<dalek> r29510 | bernhard++ | remove_getfd:
<dalek> : #48312: [TODO] add get_fd method to ParrotIO
<dalek> : add a TODO comment, referencing RT #48312.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29510
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<dalek> r29511 | jkeenan++ | parallel:
<dalek> : Consolidate multiple test files per configuration step into a single file.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29511
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<dalek> r29512 | bernhard++ | remove_getfd:
<dalek> : [build] Some beautifications in Parrot::Ops2pm::Utils 
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29512
<barney> cotto_home: good point,  there are too many unclosable tickets in RT
* barney refered to cotto's reply to RT #40631
<moritz> aye, very good one
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<cotto_home> thanks
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<cotto_home> I'd be glad to help find more such tickets
<moritz> I'm going through the perl6 queue
<cotto_home> do you have any suggestions on preventing them from being warnocked?
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<moritz> send at most 5 a day to the list ;-)
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<masak> what gets warnocked and what doesn't seems to be a very complex thing
<masak> I wanted to reply to pmichaud's closure mail, but I found I couldn't
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<masak> so I took it up on IRC instead
<moritz> what prevent you from replying on list?
<masak> the fact that I thought that the answer was obvious :)
<moritz> ;)
<masak> even now, I have difficulty seeing the difficulty, even after pmichaud explained it to me
<masak> I wish it were as easy to implement the correct answers as it is to imagine them...
<dalek> r29513 | bernhard++ | remove_getfd:
<dalek> : #48310: [TODO] remove the getfd opcode
<dalek> : Remove the getfd opcode.
<dalek> : Renumber the ops with tools/dev/ops_renum.mak
<dalek> : Add implementation hints for method get_fd() in the ParrotIO PMC.
<dalek> : Rewrite some tests in  t/pmc/io.t, marking them as TODO, as there is get_fd method yet.
<dalek> : Invalidate PBC by editing PBC_COMPAT.
<dalek> : ===================================================================
<dalek> : --- t/pmc/io.t	(Revision 29488)
<dalek> : +++ t/pmc/io.t	(Arbeitskopie)
<dalek> : @@ -1,10 +1,11 @@
<dalek> :  #! perl
<dalek> : -# Copyright (C) 2001-2007, The Perl Foundation.
<dalek> : +# Copyright (C) 2001-2008, The Perl Foundation.
<dalek> :  # $Id$
<dalek> :  
<dalek> :  use strict;
<dalek> :  use warnings;
<dalek> :  use lib qw( . lib ../lib ../../lib );
<dalek> : +
<dalek> :  use Test::More;
<dalek> :  use Parrot::Test tests => 45;
<dalek> :  
<moritz> wtf?
<szbalint> hm
<dalek> : @@ -111,9 +112,11 @@
<dalek> :  a line
<dalek> :  OUTPUT
<dalek> :  
<dalek> : -pasm_output_is( <<'CODE', <<'OUTPUT', "getfd/fdopen" );
<dalek> : -        getstdout P0
<dalek> : -        getfd I0, P0
<szbalint> I sense something went wrong with this one :)
<dalek> : +# RT#46843
<dalek> : +pir_output_is( <<'CODE', <<'OUTPUT', "getfd/fdopen", todo => 'get_fd() not implemented yet' );
<dalek> : +.sub main :main
<dalek> : +    getstdout P0
<moritz> anybody wants to kick dalek ?
<dalek> : +    I0 = P0.get_fd()
<dalek> :      fdopen P1, I0, ">"
<dalek> :      defined I0, P1
<dalek> :      unless I0, nok
<dalek> : @@ -122,14 +125,16 @@
<dalek> :      end
<dalek> :  nok:
<dalek> :      print "fdopen failed\n"
<dalek> : -    end
<dalek> : +.end
<dalek> :  CODE
<dalek> :  ok
<dalek> :  OUTPUT
<dalek> :  
<dalek> : -pasm_output_is( <<'CODE', <<'OUTPUT', "fdopen - no close" );
<dalek> : -        getstdout P0
<dalek> : -        getfd I0, P0
<dalek> : +# RT#46843
<dalek> : +pir_output_is( <<'CODE', <<'OUTPUT', 'fdopen - no close', todo => 'get_fd() not implemented yet' );
<dalek> : +.sub main :main
<dalek> : +    getstdout P0
<dalek> : +    I0 = P0.get_fd()
<dalek> :      fdopen P1, I0, ">"
<dalek> :      defined I0, P1
<dalek> :      unless I0, nok
<dalek> : @@ -137,7 +142,7 @@
<dalek> :      end
<dalek> :  nok:
<dalek> :      print "fdopen failed\n"
<dalek> : -    end
<dalek> : +.end
<dalek> :  CODE
<dalek> :  ok
<dalek> :  OUTPUT
<dalek> : @@ -454,22 +459,24 @@
<dalek> :  
<dalek> :  unlink("temp.file");
<dalek> :  
<dalek> : -pasm_output_is( <<'CODE', <<'OUT', 'standard file descriptors' );
<dalek> : +# RT#46843
<dalek> : +pir_output_is( <<'CODE', <<'OUT', 'standard file descriptors', todo => 'get_fd() not implemented yet' );
<dalek> : +.sub main :main
<dalek> :         getstdin P0
<dalek> : -       getfd I0, P0
<dalek> : +       I0 = P0.get_fd()
<dalek> :         # I0 is 0 on Unix and non-Null on stdio and win32
<dalek> :         print "ok 1
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29513
<cotto_home> botfail
<moritz> no, barneyfail ;-)
<szbalint> actually, the bot just failed to limit the amount of text it's supposed to output from the commit log
<cotto_home> just noticed
<moritz> the commmit message contained the patch
<jonathan> ...well, that's one way to get more code review.
<dalek> r29514 | bernhard++ | remove_getfd:
<dalek> : #48310: [TODO] remove the getfd opcode
<dalek> : Adapt test description.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29514
<dalek> r29515 | bernhard++ | remove_getfd:
<dalek> : #48310: [TODO] remove the getfd opcode
<dalek> : get rid of 'getfd' in languages/PIR.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29515
<cotto_home> moritz, what about a rt that depended on any uncloseable tickets
<barney> did everybody see the coding error?  :=)
<cotto_home> that'd at least help with accounting
<moritz> cotto_home: make that dependency closable?
<cotto_home> barneyfail++
<dalek> r29516 | bernhard++ | remove_getfd:
<dalek> : #48310: [TODO] remove the getfd opcode
<dalek> : Get rid of 'getfd' in compilers/pirc.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29516
<moritz> ok, down to 45 tickets in the perl6 queue
<cotto_home> moritz, I don't know if such a ticket would be closeable, but it'd at least help get rid of other uncloseable tickets
<cotto_home> it'd probably have to depend on itself ;)
<masak> is there a gsoc meeting today? in which channel is it?
<moritz> masak: it's in #perl6-soc on freenode
<masak> moritz: ah, thanks
<moritz> masak: yw. Mostly interesting for Perl 6 testing
<masak> I'm interested in Perl 6 testing
<moritz> good ;-)
<masak> what time will the meeting be?
<moritz> 19:30 UTC
<moritz> which is 21:30 middle european time
<masak> excellent
<cotto_home> should unresolvable tickets be children or dependencies of the "too many unresolvable tickets" ticket?
<barney> children,   they donÄt have to be resolved, in order to become resolvable
<dalek> r29517 | bernhard++ | remove_getfd:
<dalek> : #48312: [TODO] add get_fd method to ParrotIO
<dalek> : Add the method get_fd(), take code from the implemention 
<dalek> : of the removed opcode 'getfd'.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29517
<cotto_home> thanks
<cotto_home> work &
<dalek> r29518 | coke++ | trunk:
<dalek> : [tcl] use a tailcall
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29518
<dalek> r29519 | coke++ | tcl_pct:
<dalek> : Remove experimental branch for converting tcl to PCT from scratch.
<dalek> : A better approach will probably be to convert it in place to PCT,
<dalek> : then begin adding optimizations, rather than starting over from
<dalek> : scratch.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29519
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<dalek> r29520 | bernhard++ | remove_getfd:
<dalek> : [codingstd] remove trailing spaces
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29520
<dalek> r29521 | bernhard++ | trunk:
<dalek> : [docs] Rephrase recommendation of test before comitting.
<dalek> : Especially mention 'make codetest'.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29521
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<dalek> r29522 | bernhard++ | trunk:
<dalek> : Merge the changes from branch 'remove_getfd' back into trunk.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29522
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* davidfetter waves to cotto_work
<dalek> r29523 | tene++ | trunk:
<dalek> : [lolcode]
<dalek> : * Do everything at compile time.  No more expr_parse.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29523
<Tene> That was a very satisfying commit
<NotFound> LOL!
<moritz> aye
<moritz> do *everything* at compile time. Includes eating chicken at compile time ;-)
<Tene> Yes.
<Tene> I need to do some crazy stuff for cardinal.
<Tene> To get it to parse properly, I'll need to do similar lookups and symbol tables at *parse* time.
<dalek> r29524 | bernhard++ | trunk:
<dalek> : Update TODO comment: RT#42373 is part of RT#48312.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29524
<cotto_work> davidfetter, hi
<Tene> I really should talk with pmichaud about it eventually.
<moritz> Tene: Perl 6 will need that too, for tracking type names
<jonathan> Tene: I think for Rakudo we'll...yes, moritz said it.
<jonathan> I want to do that in Rakudo soonish, but need to talk with PM first.
<davidfetter> cotto_work, any word from your cow orkers?
<cotto_work> no, but after lunch today will be a good day to ask them about it
<davidfetter> i'd really appreciate your help on this :)
<cjfields> jonathan: I found an odd issue when implementing match (method form of m//).  Pretty sure it involves lexicals.
<cotto_work> one thing; your request is on how to make postgres more attractive to windows developers, right?
<davidfetter> yep
<cotto_work> that seems a little vague
<davidfetter> well, for example, it relies at the moment on automake, etc. for top-level developers
<cotto_work> so compatibility with windows build tools is a goal?
<cotto_work> er, MS build tools
<davidfetter> compatibility is to some degree already there. "attractiveness" is a little closer
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<davidfetter> as in, it's possible to build it using msvc 2008 or whatever it's called
<davidfetter> oh, and apparently development *with* postgres (as opposed to *on* postgres) seems to have a few holes like lack of LINQ
<davidfetter> any good refs on that?
* davidfetter waves to Theory
<jonathan> cjfields: OK, either ticket it or write to perl6-compiler, and I or pmichaud can take a look.
<jonathan> Or anyone else with answers. :-)
<cjfields> I'll send it to p6-compiler then.  May be something I'm not getting.
<jonathan> davidfetter: LINQ is awesome; I can hardly imagine .Net dev without it any more.
<cotto_work> davidfetter, I'm clue-poor in that area, but pgsql LINQ and building with MS tools sound like some good concrete goals.
<dalek> r29525 | bernhard++ | remove_getfd:
<dalek> : Delete branch after merge with trunk.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29525
<davidfetter> cotto_work, thanks for helping me refine my questions :)
<jonathan> I know that the way LINQ is architected is meant to allow other DBs to be able to implement "drivers" for it.
<Theory> heya davidfetter 
<purl> davidfetter is looking to put together PL/Parrot
<cotto_work> davidfetter, anything else you'd like to see happen?
<davidfetter> cotto_work, those would be gigantic by themselves
<davidfetter> cotto_work, although of course sponsorship, inclusion in ms products, etc. would be nice, too ;)
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<cotto_work> ok.  I'll send of a mail and do a meatspace poke later today
<davidfetter> ms has a very long history of using bsd-licensed code :)
<cotto_work> It's very corporate-friendly.
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<cotto_work> davidfetter, do you know of someone who'd be able to implement either of those requests, or is finding those people the issue?
* barney heads for Munich Perl Monger meeting
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<rurban> parrot-0.6.3-1 is now officially included cygwin, 0.6.4-1 still needs some care (today or tomorrow)
<NotFound> rurban++
<rurban> thanks for the new name parrot_debugger btw.
<rurban> It came just in time for me. I still haven't checked if it was patched correctly. I found a lot of missing places in my first patch today.
<rurban> man(1) pages somewhen planned? And how?
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<rurban> And I want to discuss the libparrot_shared name for cygwin: I found an very old patch (warnocked) which renames it to cygparrot$major_$minor.dll. I did it now too.
<rurban> oops. even major_minor_subrelease.dll. I just do $dllsuffix = join("_",@parrot_version); 
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<rurban> My next work is now to remove the funky /usr/runtime/parrot/include /usr/runtime/parrot and /usr paths from the .include searchpath. I found this via strace and looks wrong.
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<NotFound> rurban: open a ticket for discussing that.
<NotFound> The dll renaming, I mean.
<rurban> just did
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<rurban> hmm, subrelease is officially called PATCH in config_lib.pasm. I would expect PATCH to be the subversion revisionlevel (.parrot_current_rev)
<Tene> What was the problem with pdb?
<Tene> Well, with "pdb"?
<rurban> that /usr/bin/pdb alrady exists
<rurban> the python debugger, and on IBM machines the portable debugger
<Tene> ah
<rurban> of course you can always symlink it to pdb
<rurban> (in case you avoid python :)
<rurban> And disassemble was also a bit to broad for general packaging
<NotFound> rurban: PATCH is taken from the VERSION file.
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<rurban> NotFound: I know. Just a split of ".". But the key in the config hash is a bit strange.
<rurban> Anyway. I'm not bothered too much. It just looked strange at first sight.
<NotFound> rurban: the intention, as I hear recently, is that svn release number are not included in distribution packages.
<rurban> perl5 names the third version digit PERL_SUBVERSION, and the PERL_PATCHLEVEL is the revision number.
<rurban> NotFound: Empty svn release numbers are okay. This is the same everywhere. You have to see iin a bugreport if its a development version or a release.
<particle> if we include a revision number, it'll be called _REVISIONNUMBER and not _PATCHLEVEL
<particle> that's just silly
<rurban> hmm.
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<rurban> perl5 naming: version_patchlevel_string='version 11 subversion 0 patch 34136'
<particle> we have major minor patch
<rurban> perl6 naming: minor 6 patch 3 revision 29497
<particle> parrot naming, not perl 6 naming
<rurban> ah sorry, yes.
<rurban> Anyway, too late.
<particle> sure
<particle> there's always next time :)
<rurban> It just looks odd.
<NotFound> The name 'subversion' is also confusing in the current development model.
<rurban> :)
<particle> perl5 uses perforce, so it's not confusing to them
<particle> but, yes, it's an unfortunate name
<NotFound> We can call it perforce number, to counter attack X-)
<rurban> The perl5 names are also questionable: it should be version_patchlevel_string='minor 11 subrelease 0 patch 34136'
<NotFound> We have enough own items to discuss, let perl5 ones alone.
<rurban> ok. I'll finish now the parrot-0.6.4 release for cygwin...
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<rurban> And then I'll start fixing the makefiles to add LD_RUN_PATH/PATH=pwd/blib/lib to each parrot call. This is the last quirks I see.
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<rurban> Where can I set at perl5 Configure.pl breakpoint to fix auto::opengl::_add_to_libs() ?
<japhb> rurban: huh  what?  (This window just pinged me, probably because you mentioned OpenGL)
<japhb> (And sorry I have not dealt with OpenGL issues in the last week, $real_life interfered)
<rurban> BTW: There are way too many gcc -W switched in effect. Most of them are already implied by -Wall and -Wextra. Should I open a ticket with my list?
<rurban> japhb: I want to get rid of the logic preferring not existing native mingw libs over existing cygwin glut libs.
<japhb> OK, give me a sec to pull up auto::opengl and reacquaint my brain
<particle> rurban: config/auto/opengl.pm
<rurban> That's the easy part. I also provided a pach, but this doesn't work.
<rurban> perl -d Configure.pl ....
<NotFound> rurban: not all gcc versions support -Wextra
<japhb> rurban: OK, right, was this about the fact that you and donald hunter chose different ways to get your OpenGL support?  (One of you choosing X11, the other choosing native libs?)
<japhb> NotFound: do we have to support those gcc versions?
<rurban> I can only take X11 because I only have them and I have to assume for the cygwin package that all others also have no native mingw libs.
<rurban> Privately I'm fine with the native libs, because I'll need no X then.
<NotFound> japhb: if the price to pay is having some extra args, I will pay it.
<rurban> NotFound: I read info gcc => Invoke => Warnings and read that most of the switches are not needed. gcc-3.4.4 so quite old.
<rurban> some paste: TODO:
<rurban> remove warnings implied by -W -Wall:
<rurban>  -Wchar-subscripts -Wcomment -Wformat -Winit-self -Wimplicit-int -Wimplicit-function-declaration -Wmain  -Wmissing-braces -Wparentheses -Wsequence-point -Wreturn-type -Wswitch -Wswitch-default -Wtrigraphs -Wstrict-aliasing
<rurban>  -Wnonnull (implied by -Wformat also)
<rurban>  -Wimplicit (same as -Wimplicit-int -Wimplicit-function-declaration) 
<rurban> unclear:   -Wformat-extra-args -Wformat-nonliteral -Wformat-security -Wformat-y2k 
<japhb> NotFound: I wasn't arguing that.  I was asking if we were supporting the old gcc's in one place (the flags list), but not in another (say, src/), for hysterical raisins.  Just like we have discovered in the past that we were actually requiring newer perls, so sops to ancient perls were just historical cruft.
<rurban> ok -W -Wall -Wextra -Waggregate-return -Wcast-align -Wcast-qual -Wdisabled-optimization -Wendif-labels  -Wimport -Winline -Winvalid-pch -Wno-missing-format-attribute -Wpacked -Wpointer-arith -Wno-shadow -Wsign-compare -Wstrict-aliasing=2 -Wundef -Wunknown-pragmas -Wno-unused -Wwrite-strings -Wbad-function-cast -Wdeclaration-after-statement -Wmissing-declarations -Wmissing-prototypes...
<rurban> ...-Wnested-externs
<rurban> And I'm annoyed about the debugging into the Configure runstep hierarchy
<rurban>   DB<3> b Parrot::Configure::Step::auto::opengl::runstep
<rurban> Subroutine Parrot::Configure::Step::auto::opengl::runstep not found.
<rurban> Or cannot I just override the opengl libs that in hints/cygwin.pm? Ugly though.
<japhb> rurban: I don't think you need to breakpoint in runstep.  You want _add_to_libs, which is in one of the superclasses.
<japhb> Looks like Parrot::Configure::Step::Methods
<rurban> I see. I'm in the same boat as mingw.
<rurban> win32_gcc is both
<rurban> can I have a specialcase cygwin platform there? I'll write such a simple patch. The fallback for cygwin would be either win32_gcc or default.
<japhb> rurban: And I don't think this should be in hints/cygwin.pm, at least not directly.  donaldh pointed out last week that cygwin can *either* use packages w32api + opengl *or* xorg-x11-* + libglut*.  Which is a pain in the keister.  And mixing them, as he pointed out, blows up.
<rurban> I'll rather prefer probing the libs as in a real Configure
<rurban> As that done somewhere. So we can please everybody.
<rurban> sorry: Is that done somewhere?
<japhb> rurban: how do you propose to probe the libs?
<rurban> well, bash magic :)
<rurban> no, of course not. search some libpaths for my special platforms.
<NotFound> japhb: don't know about that, don't have any at hand to test.
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<japhb> NotFound: "that" == what?
<NotFound> japhb: old gccs
<japhb> NotFound: ah, gotcha, wrong continuation.  :-)
<rurban> but we already know the gcc version from Configure
<japhb> rurban: I don't relish the debugging when we change our warnings list based on gcc version (especially when a new version arrives).
<NotFound> rurban: I think redundant flags do not harm, and trying to avoid them will be a boring and error prone task.
<japhb> (... and someone gets a warning on a gcc none of us has, so can't replicate)
<rurban> hmm. my commandline looks pretty long now, I'm worried that it well get too long without noticing
<NotFound> rurban: Are you compiling in ms-dos or something? ;)
<rurban> stupid windows shells of course only
<japhb> Isn't the limit something fairly large like 4K?
<rurban> I'm on a bash on cygwin 1.5. cygwin-1.7 will be much better
<rurban> Where should paste my -Wall findings to? perl6-internals?
<rurban> So that the next will not have to wade through gcc docs again
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<NotFound> rurban: I don't see the need to worry about that. We can just add a note "Don't worry about redundant flags" in the gcc config part.
<rurban> At my $ccwarn = $conf->data->get('ccwarn'); as comment in the code just?
<NotFound> In the section with the list of flags to add an test will be better, I think.
<japhb> rurban: (opengl) if you include a -lfoo on a cygwin or mingw gcc command line, and 'foo.dll' and 'libfoo.dll' don't exist, what happens?
<rurban> unresolved symbols error. I konw what you mean. you dirty...
<rurban> put it all together... I'm testing this
<japhb> rurban: having any luck?
<rurban> wait a bit...
<rurban> -licuuc -licudata -lpthread -lm -lnotexists -lopengl32
<rurban> /usr/lib/gcc/i686-pc-cygwin/3.4.4/../../../../i686-pc-cygwin/bin/ld: cannot find -lnotexists
<rurban> collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
<rurban> too bad.
<rurban> No, I'm happy with fixing the lib detection logic.
<rurban> For I've just removed the cygwin case for win32_gcc so thatI will fall back todefault, which is better for the package, but not for svn.
<rurban> s/For /For now/
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<japhb> rurban: explain?
<japhb> You're doing something different in the cygwin package than what you have checked in?
<rurban> sure. my src.patch is already 53kb
<japhb> eww
<rurban> the 0.6.3 patch was just 46kb
<rurban> It's so big because of all the binary renamings. The rest is tools/dev/install_files.pl which is broken
<rurban> The ffi names pointing to non-existing dll's need also to be fixed for cygwin
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<rurban> And some improtant patches were forgotten in 0.6.4, such as the cygwin jit fix.
<NotFound> I've found that I still have a gcc-3.4 Not very old, but I tested building with it, and no problem.
<rurban> the implib patch (import library), the recent parrot_debugger renaming, ...
<rurban> the cygwin dll naming, ...
<particle> i don't expect to support parrot on any gcc older that 3.4
<chromatic> and 3.x probably only because Mac OS X and OpenBSD haven't finished moving to 4.x yet.
<particle> yep
<NotFound> particle: you're luck that at my work they recently retired the last hp-ux 10.20 system, I had a 2.9 on them X-)
<japhb> chromatic: What are OS X and OpenBSD still using 3.x for, anyway?  I thought OS X had run 4.x for a while now ...
<chromatic> japhb, I don't know about 10.5, but with 10.4 gcc 3.x was still an option.
<rurban> japhb: I have now a good opengl cygwin compromise patch. I'll add to to the tracker.
<cjfields> OS X 10.5 uses gcc 4.0.1
<japhb> rurban: cool, I'll look for it.
<chromatic> OpenBSD ... well, they're writing their own version of CVS.  I'll stop there.
* japhb squeezes his eyes shut in pain
<japhb> That's just ... disturbing.
<davidfetter> chromatic, ugh
<szbalint> instead of letting CVS die a pensioner's death...
<davidfetter> and going with a DSCM would be bad is wrong because...?
<japhb> It's amazing how sometimes brilliant people have a mental block about something very, very wrong.
<davidfetter> er, s/would be bad//
<japhb> davidfetter: Just taking a random guess, perhaps because they don't feel they could do a full security sweep of something as big as a DSCM?
<NotFound> gcc-3.4 build pass all test. Want a smoke?
* davidfetter thinks people who imagine they can do a "full security sweep" of *anything* are delusional
<japhb> davidfetter: OpenBSD does iterative sweeps.  Every time a new class of bug is discovered, they sweep their entire code base for it.  And any time a piece of code is too complex to feel like they can secure it properly, they rewrite.
<davidfetter> what happens when they find a class break in TCP?
<davidfetter> or DNS?
<purl> rumour has it DNS is the way to hack the Internet
<moritz> davidfetter: pray they don't ;-)
<japhb> They're more than a bit nutters, but then again they often get to go 'nya-nya-nya-nya-nyaaaah' every time other distros say 'I didn't know you could do *that* to *that* ...'
<japhb> davidfetter: You mean a fundamental design flaw?  Like the one from last week?
<davidfetter> japhb, yep
<moritz> .oO( they fix it? )
<japhb> davidfetter: half the time, their paranoia means that the bug could never have been exploited on their system.  Just like djbdns was not exploitable, because DJB had long ago said 'randomizing source port is just good layered security, even though I don't know what I'm protecting against'.
<davidfetter> "security" like "meaning" is not context-free
<japhb> That's why, for instance, long ago OpenBSD went to randomized process IDs.  Because too many people think a process ID is a good random seed, and they're wrong.
<davidfetter> so saying something is just generally "good security" is missing the point
<davidfetter> randomizing process ids is good, but only in the context of that threat model :)
<japhb> davidfetter: Sure.  But you can say 'fits a pattern of known good security practices in other places'
<moritz> but you have to admit that they have very good ideas from time to time ;-)
<davidfetter> fair enough
<japhb> OK, popping that discussion off the stack ... we clearly support gcc 3.4.  How much older than that do we still support?
<rurban> 3.3 ?
<particle> no
<davidfetter> stack? i thought we used registers here ;)
<particle> and don't even ask about 2.7
<NotFound> Smoke passed and sended for 3.4
<rurban> 2.95 is still quite popular in academia
<chromatic> Academia should freakin' go outside once in a while.
<japhb> chromatic++
<chromatic> HELLO FROM THE 21ST CENTURY PLEASE JOIN US THE WATER IS FINE
<rurban> then they would get some fresh air. better not
<NotFound> What academia? Plato's one?
<japhb> davidfetter: OK, I mark the PMC holding that conversation continuation for garbage collection ...
<davidfetter> heh
<rurban> Another packaging thingo. I believe it's good to add a local_patches list to myconfig, as with perl5 local_patches[]
<rurban> So that you (and I ) can identify bugreports
<dalek> r29526 | coke++ | trunk:
<dalek> : [tcl] update XXX comment regarding HLL_map issue in [list]
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29526
<rurban> I have to go now. Bye!
<moritz> #perl6-soc now (if pmichaud or particle are around)
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<dalek> r29527 | julianalbo++ | trunk:
<dalek> : add an assertion to src/debug.c
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29527
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<dalek> r29528 | Whiteknight++ | gsoc_pdd09:
<dalek> : [gsoc_pdd09] a few small changes I made while debugging
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29528
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<dalek> r29529 | Whiteknight++ | gsoc_pdd09:
<dalek> : [gsoc_pdd09] update to trunk r29527
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29529
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<cjfields> chromatic++ (and that's coming from an academic)
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<dalek> r29530 | julianalbo++ | trunk:
<dalek> : some more work in debugger
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29530
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<dalek> r29531 | julianalbo++ | trunk:
<dalek> : codingstd in debug.c
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29531
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<Tene> pmichaud: ping
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<Limbic_Region> pmichaud ping
<Tene> HAY I PINGED HIM FIRST
<Limbic_Region> FILO
<NotFound> drop icmp echo
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<Tene> Limbic_Region: so if I ping him again, I get another spot on the stack?
<chromatic> No stack; it's asynchronous CPS.
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<dalek> r29532 | jkeenan++ | parallel:
<dalek> : Add inline comments to clarify what each section of file is doing.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29532
<dalek> r29533 | Whiteknight++ | gsoc_pdd09:
<dalek> : [gsoc_pdd09] Add in a new last-first finalizing algorithm. Segfaults worse then before.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29533
<dalek> r29534 | jkeenan++ | parallel:
<dalek> : Adjust POD in '=for' block.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29534
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<dalek> r29535 | coke++ | trunk:
<dalek> : [tcl] Make this function more maintainable (get rid of old PASM style var
<dalek> : names, splitting them up into saner chunks.)
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29535
<dalek> r29536 | coke++ | trunk:
<dalek> : [tcl] http://code.google.com/p/partcl/issues/detail?id=58
<dalek> : Rename to avoid many (but not all) '__foo' style names
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29536
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<chromatic> "Segfaults worse than before" made me laugh a sad, sardonic laugh.
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<Whiteknight> chromatic++
<chromatic> It's been that kind of day.
<Whiteknight> chromatic, your comments last night were dead-on, i found and fixed the problem
<chromatic> Excellent!  Which commit?
<Whiteknight> ...I might not have committed it yet
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<Whiteknight> here it comes
<chromatic> The way to think about this is: there is a finite upper bound on the number of segfaults possible with our code.
<chromatic> Every commit which fixes one (without adding another) is progress.
<chromatic> Unfortunately, that parenthetical note makes the theory less practical in practice.
<dalek> r29537 | Whiteknight++ | gsoc_pdd09:
<dalek> : [gsoc_pdd09] Fixed a problem with premature short-circuiting in pobject_lives as per a suggestion from chromatic++
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29537
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<Whiteknight> the code now isn't segfaulting, it's failing a null pointer assertion
<Whiteknight> which is really just a segfault in disguise
<chromatic> A segfault in a wig.
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<Whiteknight> a segfault that makes it's own handy backtrace
<chromatic> It makes its own gravy.
<Whiteknight> you're a freaking genius
<chromatic> Was it the if (card_mark == GC_IT_CARD_BLACK || hdr->next != NULL) ?
<cotto_work> mmmmmm.  segfault gravy.
<cotto_work> tastes kinda nully
<Whiteknight> yes, that was it exactly
<Whiteknight> i can't believe I never noticed that before
<chromatic> It's a lot easier to figure out the problem by reading it in a diff.
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<Whiteknight> I so owe you those cookies
<Whiteknight> you got a favorite type?
<chromatic> Not oatmeal, no raisin.
<chromatic> It's a disjoint set.
<Whiteknight> oh great, I have to do set logic on my recipe book
<chromatic> I recommend lazy evaluation.
<chromatic> Have kids and try parallelism.
<Whiteknight> my fiancee is already talking about having kids, I don't need you to jump on the bandwagon too
<Whiteknight> the failed assertion now is on a null pointer in a string, string->encoding
<Whiteknight> these strings are the worst
<chromatic> It's probably Not A String.
<Whiteknight> i'm on a roll now, I've got finalization back in, and it's almost working perfectly
<chromatic> See if new_string_header returns that pointer and figure out what wants it.
<Whiteknight> well, "perfectly" is loosely defined here
<chromatic> Meanwhile I'm ordering loot for my minions.
<Whiteknight> loot? minions?
<Whiteknight> I CAN B MINION? I CAN HAZ LOOT?
<chromatic> You have to have lots of meetings to get minions.
<Whiteknight> meetings are the worst
<dalek> r29538 | allison++ | pdd25cx:
<dalek> : [pdd25cx] Override 'invoke' vtable function for ExceptionHandler PMC. Like the
<dalek> : Sub PMC, and unlike the Continuation PMC, 'invoke' should never process args
<dalek> : for the exception handler, those are handled elsewhere. This removes some nasty
<dalek> : special-case code too.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29538
<chromatic> Aha, so that's what it was.
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<Whiteknight> "get_pmc_keyed_string() not implemented in class 'String'"
<chromatic> That's what you get when you accidentally reuse a live PMC header.
<dalek> r29539 | Whiteknight++ | gsoc_pdd09:
<dalek> : [gsoc_pdd09] More fixes to the finalization loop bounds-checking. Fixed one error, exposed another
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29539
<Whiteknight> this gc is going to drive me back to the drink
<chromatic> Wine... and cookies?
<Whiteknight> i wasn't so sophisticated back in college
<Whiteknight> but all this talk of cookies is making me majorly hungry
<chromatic> I had ice cream.
<chromatic> For once, my presence in the office coincided with snacks.
<Whiteknight> lucky bastard
<Whiteknight> I dont get icecream. Hell, I barely get medical
<Auzon> "Job benefits include dental and ice cream."
<chromatic> I get the messages about "Hey, there's ice cream in the kitchen!" but usually that kitchen is a thousand miles away.
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<chromatic> Okay, 662 miles away.
<Whiteknight> you still at the office? it should be almost 6 out there, right?
<chromatic> Yes.
<chromatic> O'Reilly time doesn't start early in the morning.
<Whiteknight> oh.
<Whiteknight> I like to go in early and get out early
<chromatic> That means waking up early, which has never worked for me in a hotel.
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<Whiteknight> why are you in a hotel anyway?
<Whiteknight> I know OSCON is coming up, but you live in portland, don't you?
<chromatic> I'm working at the Sebastopol office this week.
<Whiteknight> oh, okay
<chromatic> I go home tomorrow, and then OSCON starts Mondayish.
<Whiteknight> yeah, I wish I could make it to that. 
<Whiteknight> but, I can only afford to go to Portland once per year
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<chromatic> If gas prices go up much more, I'll say the same thing.
<Whiteknight> tell me about it
<chromatic> And it's only ten miles.
<chromatic> Okay, hotel time.
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<Whiteknight> It's like my personal quest to get the deepest stacktrace
<Whiteknight> my personal best is 46 frames
<dalek> r29540 | Whiteknight++ | gsoc_pdd09:
<dalek> : [gsoc_pdd09] stop ignoring the problem, and add in a failing assertion.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29540
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<dalek> r29541 | Whiteknight++ | gsoc_pdd09:
<dalek> : [gsoc_pdd09] fixed one problem with null pointers being marked alive. Back to another problem I was having with strings.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29541
<Limbic_Region> Whiteknight - you do know that chromatic is pretty anal about his name never being capitalized right?
<Whiteknight> did I capitalize it?
<Whiteknight> I try not to
<Limbic_Region> your use.perl entry
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<Whiteknight> oh, those are always filled with typos
<Whiteknight> but I'm happy that somebody is reading it!
<Limbic_Region> I always read them
<Limbic_Region> but before you get too flattered, I read almost every posting
<Limbic_Region> well, at least I used to
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<dalek> r29542 | Whiteknight++ | gsoc_pdd09:
<dalek> : [gsoc_pdd09] A few fixes:
<dalek> : * Add lists back into managed code
<dalek> : * Remove cruft from gc_it.c
<dalek> : * Update gc_it.readme file to reflect some changes I've made
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29542
<Whiteknight> t/op/gc.t is going to cause problems because I dont think I faithfully reproduce the interface
<Whiteknight> not yet, anyway
<purl> well volunteered!
<Whiteknight> how do you mark a test as being a TODO?
<Whiteknight> because I have a whole bunch of tests that I want to make disappear
<kid51> For tests in Perl 5:  perldoc Test::More.  For tests in PIR, I grep the t/ directory for todo/TODO.
* kid51 cheats when it comes to tests in PIR
* Whiteknight just renamed the test file
<kid51> That's *really* cheating!
<kid51> But as uri once said at YAPC auction, "This is Perl; it's okay to cheat."
<Whiteknight> my branch appears to be passing almost all tests
<Whiteknight> the ones it fails are mostly because PGE won't build
<cotto_work> who needs it.
<kid51> Then, yes, those are good candidates for TODO
<Whiteknight> a few segfaults, but far fewer then I used to have
<Whiteknight> okay, i'm out for the night. Talk to youse guys later
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<cotto_home> are there plans to deprecate get_repr in favor of get_string?
<cotto_home> pdds/pdd17_pmc.pod mentions it as a potential candidate for deprecation, but nothing seems to have been done about it
* davidfetter waves to cotto_home
<cotto_home> hi
<cotto_home> how many people working on postgres know how to do either of the things you asked about (LINQ or building with MS tools)?
<cotto_home> the oss lab has mostly been helping enable existing developers by providing MSDN subscriptions or access to hosted machines
<davidfetter> hrm. what kind of access?
<cotto_home> full access, but with no guarantees of backups, etc
<cotto_home> Alias and Ingy were on campus earlier today talking about that with a pm from the lab.
<davidfetter> hrm
<s1n> any admins of the pugscode repo in here? (i need my password reset)
<dalek> r29543 | coke++ | trunk:
<dalek> : [tcl] add some javadoc. Er, some function docs. Er, -one- function doc.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29543
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<dalek> r29544 | allison++ | pdd25cx:
<dalek> : [pdd25cx] Bringing the pdd25cx branch up-to-date with trunk r29543.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29544
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<dalek> r29545 | allison++ | pdd25cx:
<dalek> : [pdd25cx] Skipping a TODO test that causes an infinite loop in the new
<dalek> : exception implementation.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29545
<dalek> r29546 | allison++ | pdd25cx:
<dalek> : [pdd25cx] Renumbering ops after merge.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29546
<dalek> r29547 | allison++ | pdd25cx:
<dalek> : [pdd25cx] Updating new exception code from merge to the new exception implementation.
<dalek> diff: http://www.parrotvm.org/svn/parrot/revision?rev=29547
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<justin> hello :-)
<moritz> good morning
<moritz> (or whatever your localtime() is ;-)
<justin> it's morning, so you're spot on ;-)
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<cotto_home> it's almost morning
<cotto_home> which means... sleep &
<moritz> ;-)